Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, um… Al W5LUA: Hello, Jim. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Hello! Hello! Al W5LUA: Yeah, it's Al. Al W5LUA: Can I try sharing my screen? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yes, go ahead, go ahead. Al W5LUA: Alright. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, that looks good. Al W5LUA: Alright. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Al W5LUA: Let me just kind of count here, and I'll go through, um, the slides, just make sure it goes forward and backwards, okay? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Al W5LUA: Here we have slide 2, the introduction. Al W5LUA: Slide 3, talking about Artemis. Al W5LUA: And slide 4, slide 5. Al W5LUA: Slide 6, going backwards, slide 5. Al W5LUA: warm. Al W5LUA: Is that coming through okay? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, it's almost instantaneous. Al W5LUA: Okay, good. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh, delay. Al W5LUA: Alright, well, we're good to go then, I guess. Al W5LUA: See, how do I not… oh, stop share. Okay, alright. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Al W5LUA: Hey, at some point, I want to talk to you about SDRs. I want to buy one. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I saw your comment in the slide, and I have the Pluto devices, and I have a HackRF. Al W5LUA: Yeah, and I guess those are the two I was looking at. Um, I can't believe how expensive the blue tow is. I saw, like, $479 or something, and… Al W5LUA: the HackRF was… Al W5LUA: 3-something with some goodie bag, which I don't really need. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, the… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): XRF has a 10MHz reference input. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And the Pluto uses an internal 25 meg. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): TXCO, which has to be replaced, because it… well… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): To use it above about 2 gig, because it's pretty drifty with the one they sell. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But I've modified 4 of them. Al W5LUA: Yeah, I was… Al W5LUA: Okay, for a 10 meg reference? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): No, uh, just to replace the TXCO with a better, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Like, 50 times better, Crystal. Al W5LUA: Okay, well, I noticed that, uh, they say that externally, you can use anything from a 10 meg to an 80 meg. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, for the Pluto. Al W5LUA: Uh, yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, they must have, uh, changed it then. That's good news. Al W5LUA: So you would, uh, suggest either one of those, or… Al W5LUA: I want something that goes up to at least 2G. I know when I go higher, I'm still going to have to down-convert unless I want to fork over. Al W5LUA: Thousands of dollars, but… Al W5LUA: What's your preference on those two? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Boy, that's a hard question. I think, uh, the HackRF comes ahead for me. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, the one disadvantage that it has is it cannot do duplex. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Where it transmits and receives simultaneously. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And it does not have modification ability to add, uh, a second. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): transmit, receive channel. So, you know, in the full-blown MoD, which I did on mine. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You can have two… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Receive, transmit pairs. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Operational at the same time. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And that would have, like, an application in radar. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But, um, the HackRF is just more, like, I've got one transmit, one receive, and neither the two can meet at the same time. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So it has to switch between transmit and receive. Al W5LUA: Gotcha. Al W5LUA: I also noticed that the HackRF is an 8-bit. Al W5LUA: A to D, and Pluto's at 12. Al W5LUA: And I wonder when I want to feel the difference between those two. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Hmm. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I have not had… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Any reason to know a difference. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh… the last thing I built for… with the HackRF was… Al W5LUA: Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): A scanner that would operate in a 3 kilohertz bandwidth and would identify the. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): WSJT tones. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So that I could bend them and slot them and understand if the spacing was right after multiplication, you know, by the RF stages. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And it was fast enough to hack RF, and had enough resolution to do what I needed there. Al W5LUA: Okay. Well, Pete Saez is still happy with the, uh, HackRF. In fact, he had, uh, two of them. Al W5LUA: One of them was just set up for… I'll call it a zero beat, where you can actually look at the Doppler shift. Al W5LUA: And the other one, just for tuning around, just because that's what hams like to do. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Interesting. Um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Can you hear the sound from the IF radio when I… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Here to this microphone. Let me turn the volume up. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Can you hear any tone from the radio? Al W5LUA: I don't. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That's interesting that… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It's so loud in here, I can't hear myself think, but it's not being picked up by the… Al W5LUA: Hmm. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, this microphone in this, uh, separate… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): system I have. Al W5LUA: Maybe he thinks it's noise. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Maybe I could turn that off. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, it says noise removal is default. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Let me turn it up again now. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I'll turn it up again now that I took the noise removal off. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): pretty high-pitched WSJT tones, but can you hear them? Al W5LUA: No, and you're kind of weak right now. Is it… Al W5LUA: There's some sort of a squelch on, or something? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, I'm just not in line with the microphone, I don't think. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Alright, let me put it real close. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You hear the tones now? Al W5LUA: No, I don't. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh. Al W5LUA: Maybe it's too high for my ear. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Good. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Alright. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, that, uh, I needed to know that so that I could anticipate how this demo will go. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, obviously you're not going to be able to hear it unless I… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Bring it right from the IF rig into the… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Into the… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Probably not hearing me. Al W5LUA: I always have had trouble trying to play something across a cell phone. Al W5LUA: To somebody. Al W5LUA: It just doesn't seem like it picks up anything. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, let me try this again. Al W5LUA: Okay, I hear that. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, let me see if I pick it up in my… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): My headset's monitor… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, I'm hearing just a little bit of it. Al W5LUA: Yep. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, good, well then that's how we'll play the. Al W5LUA: Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That's how we'll do the demo, because I got… I got two 47GHz beacons here on different frequencies. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I want to show that. Al W5LUA: Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Turn that down. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I had to set it on, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): On the… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): On the Zoom settings, I had to pick deselect noise removal. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): and select Original Sound for Musicians. Al W5LUA: Yep. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And now let me get it back on top microphone, there, now it's back. Al W5LUA: Yeah, you're quite a few dBs stronger, your voice. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, yeah, I hear it over the monitor too. I keep my cell phone tuned in as a separate attendee. That's what you see when you see NTMS, lowercase s, big case S, backup. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So I can have a constant monitor of what's going out over the air. Al W5LUA: It's like a studio. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. In fact, I got the idea from Open Broadcast Software, which I used back in the SDR. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Siri stuff. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Right. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Phew, I got a lot of light here. Let me turn some of these lights off. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): See, uh, Greg is here. Let's see, Pat is here. Welcome, Pat. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): only… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And Barry. Barry, is it thought out yet? Pat W5VY: Hey, Jim. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Hi, Pat. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Hey, Mr. Barry. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, has… has the snow melted? Barry VE4MA: Yeah, it's melting, but it's still here. Barry VE4MA: I just got down off a tower, so I'm, uh… kind of running around here. It was a nice day, it's supposed to hit 12C here today, but it's windy, so… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I see Don, uh, VE6HQ. Welcome, Don. Don VE6HQ: Uh, thanks, Al. Good morning. And Barry, it's about the same temperature here in Red Deer, so things are looking good. It's been a long winter. Don VE6HQ: Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I see Bob N5BRG. Welcome, Mr. Strickland. Bob N5BRG: Hello. Bob N5BRG: Good to see everybody here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Hey. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, see, our, um, secretary is here from the Society, Eric Haskell. Hi, Eric. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Hello, this is Sirk. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Hear me? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And one of our rovers out East Texas, Jerry, K5SOP. Howdy, Jerry. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Hello? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I'm not sure I recognize who Lowell and Laurie is. Lowell & Lori: Yeah, good afternoon. Uh, Lowell White, K9 LDW, out in Forney, Texas, EM12SR. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Very good. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): What was your call again, Lil? Lowell & Lori: Kilowatt, number 9, Lima, Delta Whiskey, K9 LDW. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Our rancher from down south, uh, Steve, K5MNZ, howdy Steve. Steve K5MNZ: Howdy, Jim. You guys talk quiet. My wife thinks I'm working on an income tax. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, don't blame me now, man. Steve K5MNZ: It's too… it's too late, I've already blamed you. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We're gonna have a super interesting kickoff here with Al, and I've had the advantage of seeing his presentation ahead of time. Uh, it's pretty interesting. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, dealing with Artemis II. And I know there's other interest here, and um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): maybe… did I understand that Barry had received a signal also? Al W5LUA: I think the answer to that is yes. He sent me a plot of something he had. Al W5LUA: But when the moon… when anything goes further west than 180 degrees. Al W5LUA: Uh, he has a hard time, uh, seeing it, just due to the nature of the house. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, it, um, Berry is the dish located up on the north. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): East side of your property. Barry VE4MA: Oh, uh… Barry VE4MA: Southeast. No, well, no Northeast, I guess. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, so as it rotates clockwise to get to 180 and goes beyond that, you're blocked? Barry VE4MA: Oh, uh, you know, the terrestrial dish, yeah, yeah, it, uh… Barry VE4MA: I'm blocked by my house at about 160 degrees. Barry VE4MA: I've got a, uh… Barry VE4MA: Or a jut out for the kitchen that gets me… Barry VE4MA: I can hit it at… hit the moon at high elevation, but I can't hit low at that… Barry VE4MA: I've got two dishes, uh, the other one will go to, uh… Barry VE4MA: A little past due south, but that's it. Barry VE4MA: when I put those up, there was nobody in the West, so… Barry VE4MA: In the far west. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, there's not many back there now, is there? I mean, unless you count California. Barry VE4MA: Yeah, but they can usually get on before my window gets blocked. Barry VE4MA: And the offset dish, it was, uh, as long as I could… Al and I could get together, that was good enough. Barry VE4MA: 25 years ago. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, yeah, you, you guys did it. Did do it then. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Can you… can you believe how many people are now getting on, uh, making contacts on 24GHz? Barry VE4MA: Yeah, it's amazing. I've got to get back on there, uh, big time. Barry VE4MA: I'm… Al, I'm still fighting with, uh, high-voltage connectors. Al W5LUA: Boy, sorry to hear that. Is that with the 15KV row? Barry VE4MA: Oh. Barry VE4MA: Yeah… Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I went to fire it up, and uh… it was still flashing on me, and I… sure enough, there's a carbon path in the connectors, so I'm just in the process of cleaning the darn things. Al W5LUA: Was it not tight enough? Barry VE4MA: I don't know, I thought it was clean, but… Al W5LUA: Hmm. Barry VE4MA: Yeah, so I have visions of, uh, going through the connector challenge that you went through, so… Al W5LUA: Well, at least you know where it's arcing over. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Barry VE4MA: Well, it doesn't look like it damaged the connectors, it's just a case of, alright, getting it clean enough. Al W5LUA: There was something on cleaning row connectors. Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I've got that, uh, article. It, uh… Barry VE4MA: Yeah, it's pretty straightforward, but… Al W5LUA: 99.9%, uh, alcohol, right? Barry VE4MA: Yeah, something like that. Al W5LUA: Yeah, I bought some of that. Bob N5BRG: So when it breaks down, does it make a lot of noise, and does it damage your power supply? Barry VE4MA: No, they, uh, fortunately, it's, uh, the highest voltage is pretty low current. Barry VE4MA: And so that's… that's the one, uh, you know, it's kind of double the voltage, uh, the highest voltage is, uh. Barry VE4MA: Twice what the, uh… the one that has all the power behind it, so… Barry VE4MA: And they have a sensing circuit that's really sensitive, so I could see, uh, when I pulled to put the supply on the bench, I could see this arc gap flashing, and I thought, ooh, that's weird. Barry VE4MA: And then, uh, then I got to looking at all my connections, and, and, uh, there's, uh, there's a carbon path, okay, that's why. Bob N5BRG: Hmm. Al W5LUA: At least my power supply, when I was on 24 gigs, uh, what, a few weeks ago, it tends to get over it. Al W5LUA: And doesn't, uh… Al W5LUA: Uh, not go to transmit. It'll get the arc, indicate. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Barry VE4MA: Yep. Al W5LUA: And… and you push reset. Al W5LUA: And, uh, it gets happy again, and stays happy. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Al W5LUA: Or at least for a, you know, a sequence, but… Barry VE4MA: Yeah, that's, uh, that's why I was surprised the second time I tried it, it tripped again, and I thought, oh, that's really strange. Al W5LUA: Hmm. Barry VE4MA: Pull it out of the rack, put it on the bench, put the resistive loads on it, and… Barry VE4MA: because I was suspecting, okay, well. Barry VE4MA: something else, maybe even the tube was arcing or something, who knows? I mean… Al W5LUA: My high-voltage junction box out in the shed, where it goes from. Al W5LUA: You know, the high dollar, row, high voltage cable to… Al W5LUA: some banana jacks and plugs to go out to the tube. I haven't… Al W5LUA: That's been kind of covered up for years, and there's no telling what's growing in there. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Barry VE4MA: As long as the critters haven't gotten in there… Al W5LUA: Well, yeah, big ones, but even the little ones can cause arcs, right? Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. Al W5LUA: So I need to check that out myself. Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I was just up one of my neighboring hams towers. He had a drop of water and a heliax connector. Barry VE4MA: Yeah, and connect your gasket let go, so… Al W5LUA: My 5760 receive connector had a drop of water. Al W5LUA: In the end connector, and I thought, really, it propagated throughout the whole cable, but as it turns out, it was just right there. Al W5LUA: So I took it out, blew it off. Al W5LUA: Put it back together, and it'll work fine. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Al W5LUA: So it didn't run the cable, which really surprised me, but then I'm trying to figure out, well, how the heck did it get in here? Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I figured the rubber gasket and the… everything was taped up well, except right at, right where the, uh, the lockdown nut was, it wasn't, uh… Barry VE4MA: it wasn't taped at that junction, so I figured, okay, it wicked past the gasket and the end connector and filled it up, so… Al W5LUA: Oh, yeah. Al W5LUA: I cover everything. Barry VE4MA: I usually don't, but uh… Barry VE4MA: And in this… this case, it wasn't done, so… alright. Lesson learned. Al W5LUA: Yep. Barry VE4MA: How's your weather in Dallas today? Al W5LUA: 73, and rain trying to blow through. Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I think we've got rain coming tomorrow, and a little cooler, but uh… Barry VE4MA: Sure, it's nice, except for the wind right now, so there must be a front that's blowing through today, bringing the. Barry VE4MA: Sucking up the warm air from the southwest, and… Barry VE4MA: That's why we got a warm day. Barry VE4MA: I noticed the, uh, the UK Microwave group has got a meeting tomorrow. Barry VE4MA: And Dave Robinson was going to talk about GPS DOs, so I'm gonna get up at 4 in the morning to watch it. Al W5LUA: Oh, boy. Barry VE4MA: Sucker… sucker for punishment, but… Al W5LUA: I wonder if that's the same presentation he gave us a few months ago. Barry VE4MA: Oh, probably. Al W5LUA: Talked a little bit about the past and present. Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. Well, I should have a look at that, then I can sleep in a little later tomorrow. Al W5LUA: Yeah, that's where we talked about the crystal filter for 10 meg. Al W5LUA: I had forgotten he had talked about that. Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I've forgotten, too. I'm pretty sure I saw that presentation, but uh… Barry VE4MA: I'll definitely look it up afterwards. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I forgot it, too. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I have a story. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, I took some filters down to the post office to mail to Canada. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Like the 200 Wavelab boards I've mailed. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): In little. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): flat rate boxes. I walked up to the kiosk, and it said, what's the zip code? Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And right then and there, I realized anything I'd ever sent out of the country, I had to fill out a customs form. And I had just forgot about it, and it kind of upset me. Barry VE4MA: Oh, no. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I proceeded to exit rather quickly, and I left my wallet on top of the… Barry VE4MA: Oh. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Kiosk. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I came home, and I addressed the first class envelope, and I looked it up, and it said. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You know, it's gonna be $1.79 to Winnipeg. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, I found the forever stamps that added up to that, and a little bit more, and I stuck them on there. The envelope closed. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Put a piece of tape on it, and then the doorbell rang. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And it was my postal carrier with my wallet. Barry VE4MA: Wow. Wow. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And she, she was still in the building when, you know, somebody walked back there and said, hey, some dumbass left his wallet on the… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And she… and she opened up the wallet and got the ID out, and she said, I know these people, I take their mail out there. So, this is, uh, maybe one of the advantages of living in a very small town out in the country. Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Because she'd brought it right out here to me, and I was sure thankful. Barry VE4MA: Boy, that's perfect. Al W5LUA: Give her something for Christmas. Barry VE4MA: Yeah, for sure. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh, we always do, but I told my wife she got a raise now. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Steve K5MNZ: Your postal… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I try to be real careful with that wallet and my phone, because you can't get… can't go more than about… Steve K5MNZ: What? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 30 seconds without the phone. Steve K5MNZ: What'd you say? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Maybe. Steve K5MNZ: Your mail carrier is a little more polite than mine. When I first moved down here. Steve K5MNZ: I… I borrowed a… a pretty long trailer to carry hay bales. Steve K5MNZ: And just about the first thing I did was not realize how its turn radius worked, and I pulled out of my driveway and ran over my mailbox. Steve K5MNZ: So… Steve K5MNZ: So I went into the post office, because I know… I know they have… the highway department has responsibility for the post, it turns out, and the… anyway, I went in to find out who I contact, or what I do about putting my mailbox back up. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So… Steve K5MNZ: And when I went up to the window and told her my story, she turned back to the back. She said, hey, Sheila, that guy who ran over his mailbox is here! Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh, a double judgment all in one sentence. Steve K5MNZ: Yeah, it was dripping with sarcasm. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, they probably don't get too many opportunities to laugh like that. Al W5LUA: Hey Steve, I know you got your headphones on, but your wife was peeking around the door. I don't know if she's trying to get your attention. Steve K5MNZ: Yeah, I heard her. She heard me talking and thought I must be talking to her, because here I am doing income tax. I'm not in a ham radio meeting. Al W5LUA: Oh, that's right. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): They almost got busted. Steve K5MNZ: Oh. Al W5LUA: That is… Steve K5MNZ: I already… I already declined to take her out to dinner tonight because I was going to be working on income tax, and so here she caught me. Steve K5MNZ: Talking to you guys, so I probably have to take her out. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now you get, now you have to. Barry VE4MA: Well, with doing income tax, you could be talking to yourself, you know? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Are you screaming and cussing to yourself. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Al W5LUA: What's nice about TurboTax, you know, if you stick a number in and you don't care for it, you go figure out why it's so high, and maybe you can do something to change it. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Al W5LUA: I always use that as an opportunity. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yep. Steve K5MNZ: I understand it all, I… it's just that by the end of the year. Steve K5MNZ: I don't keep it very well organized during the year, and I have to do it all now, so it just takes me a couple of days. Barry VE4MA: So, Al, I thought you were going to be away today. Al W5LUA: Um… well, I think I'm still part of the family. They decided to do, uh, dinner about 5 o'clock today. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): First off. Al W5LUA: So, um, I got a QRT at 4. Barry VE4MA: Oh, that's not too bad. Al W5LUA: But I'll be, uh… I'm in good shape, I think. And also, I'm gonna buy dinner for the family, so… Al W5LUA: Should make up for it. Steve K5MNZ: Would you buy dinner for my wife, too? Al W5LUA: Bring her up! Al W5LUA: We're gonna be in Garland. David - KG5EIU TX: Anybody have a source for, uh, slimline. David - KG5EIU TX: Dish bolts, the ones that go… David - KG5EIU TX: On the front of the dish, through the back to. David - KG5EIU TX: Hold the dish down, they're like, they got squares, and they're flat on one side. David - KG5EIU TX: that face the dish. I can't find the two, but I thought I had. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Um, I may have some of those. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Sir. Eric Haskell AG5XV: How many do you… you just need two? David - KG5EIU TX: I just need 2, yeah, cause the, the dish. David - KG5EIU TX: The dish slips into the mount, the slimline dish slips into the mount with two. David - KG5EIU TX: Fingers, and then there's just 2 bolts holding the dish to the arm. David - KG5EIU TX: Uh, Conno… Eric Haskell AG5XV: Holds a dish to the arm. David - KG5EIU TX: Uh, here, let me… I'll share my screen if I got privileges. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Okay. David - KG5EIU TX: I can show you what I'm talking about. David - KG5EIU TX: Let's do free farm, let's do share. David - KG5EIU TX: Is she that? Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. Eric Haskell AG5XV: I can't… can you make it bigger? Hold on, let me make my picture bigger, hold on. Barry VE4MA: Oh. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Okay… Eric Haskell AG5XV: Alright, uh, how long are those bolts? David - KG5EIU TX: I don't… I don't know. I don't… I can't find the two that I have, but they… they're… David - KG5EIU TX: This is the back of the dish. We're looking at the back of the dish. This is the bottom of the dish down here. David - KG5EIU TX: With these, um, moon-shaped cutouts, that's the bottom of the dish. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Mm-hmm. David - KG5EIU TX: And then, the bolts I need are… David - KG5EIU TX: Go in the front of it, but they've got a square on them so that they don't turn when you tighten down. David - KG5EIU TX: They're not very long, they're only… they're probably not even an inch long. Eric Haskell AG5XV: I've taken a bunch of those dishes apart, and I got a loose… bunch of loose hardware, so I don't know exactly what goes in those holes, but uh… David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Uh, I think the only variable is linked. Do you, uh, can you… David - KG5EIU TX: They can be long. If they were 2 inches long, I wouldn't really care. David - KG5EIU TX: It's the… Eric Haskell AG5XV: Yeah, I think, I think, I think most of them are either an inch or half, uh, half an inch. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, I think so too. I'm worried about the front of the dish, because you want to be a smooth surface. I can't just. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Yeah, I've got some smooth surface, uh, bolts, I think, that… David - KG5EIU TX: put any old bolt in there, right? That would affect the signal? Wouldn't that affect the signal? Eric Haskell AG5XV: Yeah, okay, uh, how do we get them to you? David - KG5EIU TX: Oh, I don't know, we'll… we'll have to figure it out. I can, uh, PayPal you some money, you can… Eric Haskell AG5XV: Well, I don't even know how it costs me anything, just, uh, give me an address, and I will… David - KG5EIU TX: Mail coming. David - KG5EIU TX: Alright, Eric, I'll, uh… I'll, uh… Eric Haskell AG5XV: Hold on a second, let me tell you right now. Bob N5BRG: You can put your address in the chat if you want to. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Yeah, put the address in the chat, please. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, I'll put it in the chat, and uh… give me your PayPal, and I'll send you… Eric Haskell AG5XV: You don't need to see that. David - KG5EIU TX: I don't mind, you know, it's your time, too, you know, you… David - KG5EIU TX: Let me, let me buy a Starbucks coffee or something. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Uh, I'm not a coffee drinker, but it's okay. David - KG5EIU TX: Alright, well, beer, or whatever your, whatever your poison is, you know, something. Eric Haskell AG5XV: I just hope it… just keep reminding me if I… I don't want to forget it. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay, thank you for that. I… I can't even find them on eBay, and… David - KG5EIU TX: The ones I keep finding are, are there 4 bolts for the slim, for the 18 inch dish. David - KG5EIU TX: They're, they're, uh, they're easily found, but the, the 2 bolts for the slimline dish. David - KG5EIU TX: Can't find. I don't know, that's just strange. Bob N5BRG: I thought… those look like just standard carriage bolts, and you can get them at true value, but they would be rounded on the top more. David - KG5EIU TX: Oh. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, they gotta be flat to fit in that recessed piece so the front of the dish is still smooth. Barry VE4MA: Yeah, we're… Eric Haskell AG5XV: Yeah, I think these are special engineered bolts that are, um, unique to the dish. David - KG5EIU TX: Yep. Barry VE4MA: But I don't think the round tops are gonna hurt you at all. David - KG5EIU TX: On the signal, you don't think so? Barry VE4MA: No, it's a small area. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, alright. Well, I was thinking… Barry VE4MA: I mean, in the meantime, go that way, you know, you can always, uh… I guess the only. Barry VE4MA: Thing, whether or not you can find one that's threaded all the way down, because they're not going to be very long. David - KG5EIU TX: No, no, they only need, like I said, they only need about an inch long. Uh, man, I… I can't believe I can't find them. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. David - KG5EIU TX: I remember taking that dish apart, and I put them off to the side, said, man, I'm not gonna lose these. Of course, they're lost. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Mm-hmm. Bob N5BRG: We can't believe it either. David - KG5EIU TX: I swear the Grummins probably got out there and got him. David - KG5EIU TX: Thank you, thank you, Eric. I'm gonna, um… Eric Haskell AG5XV: Hmm. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, get the chat going here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): All right, guys, we're getting to the top of the hour, and a shout-out to Mark, who's joined WBATGY. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Claudio India to November Delta Tango, and Graham McIntire. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): W5ISP, welcome. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And Al, I think it's, uh, all yours now when you want to take over the screen and. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The meeting. Al W5LUA: Alright, let me, uh… Al W5LUA: Pull it up here, let's see, uh, share… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Let's see in the PowerPoint. Al W5LUA: Oh… oh, wait a minute, why do I have two? Okay. Al W5LUA: So you see that okay? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, see the nav bar on the left, uh, F5 will make it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, full screen. Al W5LUA: Hold on a second. Al W5LUA: Stop share. Al W5LUA: Share… Al W5LUA: Hmm. Al W5LUA: I see two of them here. Al W5LUA: I wonder which one. Bob N5BRG: Maybe seeing the one on your local machine, and then the one that's coming in from the Zoom Meeting, huh? Al W5LUA: Yeah… Al W5LUA: Okay. Al W5LUA: Dogg on it. Al W5LUA: Seems like I'm going in circles here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, while you're doing that, I'm going to get the recording going, because I forgot that. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): to speak. Al W5LUA: Hmm. Al W5LUA: As my screen sharing is paused. Al W5LUA: Do you see anything from me here? I didn't have a problem. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, I see the PowerPoint, um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, the… Al W5LUA: Splashdown? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I know that F5 will make it launch into a full screen where we won't see the left hand. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Anymore? Al W5LUA: Okay, I mean, that's 5 on my end, huh? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You know, on my machine, I have to… I have to press function F5. Al W5LUA: So that's not full screen? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, it's not full screen, but it's… it's visible right now. I mean, you could just go with it, what you've got right now, if you want. Al W5LUA: Yeah, I don't… we didn't have that problem when we first checked it out, did we? Barry VE4MA: Run the presentation, whatever you need to do. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): No. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): See the far left where it says, From Beginning? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And it has an arrow. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, a green filled-in triangle pointing to the right. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Try clicking that right under the menu option that says File. Al W5LUA: Hmm, I don't know where you're at. Barry VE4MA: Upper left corner. Al W5LUA: I don't have anything up there. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh, okay, so we're seeing something different than you, apparently, but there's a yellow band that says, back up this document, and then above that, on the far left, there says. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, start slideshow, and then… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The leftmost button from that says From Beginning. Al W5LUA: But I need to share first, right? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, eventually, yeah, you probably have to share first, because the PowerPoint might take over. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That part of your Zoom screen. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I've got your presentation also, if you… Al W5LUA: Hmm. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Need to go that way. Bob N5BRG: So they're telling you, Al, within the PowerPoint slide information. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): There you go. Right there. Bob N5BRG: Yeah. You got it. Al W5LUA: Is this… is this the way it's supposed to be? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You got it. Al W5LUA: Alright. Golly, it's so complicated. Al W5LUA: Alrighty. Al W5LUA: Well, I was praying that these, uh, astronauts would land successfully, or splash down successfully yesterday. Al W5LUA: And they did, so we'll talk about, uh… Al W5LUA: some fun that I had, and some other guys had here. But this is a splashdown, I think it's 7.07 PM. Al W5LUA: And I just took this picture off the TV, right? As I hit the water, so… Al W5LUA: Not a great picture, but it's good enough. Al W5LUA: So, uh, you know, Artemis is launched on, uh. Al W5LUA: April 1st, and it was a 10-day mission, and… Al W5LUA: By all means, I think it was deemed, uh, successful, and uh… Al W5LUA: I'll talk a little bit about what I did. Al W5LUA: after I found out about the event, because it's kind of late to the party. Al W5LUA: So this will be talking about my reception of Artemis II. Al W5LUA: And, um… and what I did to, uh… Al W5LUA: have a little bit of fun over the last week or so, even though it was in the middle of the night, it was really rough from that standpoint. Al W5LUA: So you've probably all seen, uh, this slide of, uh, of, uh, different. Al W5LUA: Stages of, uh, the flight. Al W5LUA: And… Al W5LUA: Actually, I didn't start listening for it until it started to leave the Earth's orbit. Al W5LUA: A lot of other guys, uh, took some pictures of it within Earth's orbit, and that kind of got me psyched up a little bit. Al W5LUA: But they say it took… takes about 4 days to get to the moon, and I would say I just listened on the last couple of days, so it was, uh… Al W5LUA: Already quite a ways, uh, on its way to the moon, probably at least a couple hundred thousand miles out. Al W5LUA: Being out, uh, $250,000 or so. Al W5LUA: There's several amateurs out there that have been, uh, put a lot of work into this, most notably. Al W5LUA: Uh, Alex, uh, K6… Al W5LUA: Oh gosh, can't remember his call. Al W5LUA: QXYQ. Al W5LUA: Oh yeah, K6VHF. Thanks, Barry, I was hoping you'd chime in. Uh, they're working with an 18.2 meter dish out in southeast Colorado. Al W5LUA: And, uh, it's a fantastic dish. I actually worked them on 1296 Terrestrial. Al W5LUA: Over, what, per 600 miles. And also, uh, our friend Pete Tyerson… Al W5LUA: OI in Kansas. He's got a 28-foot Kennedy dish, and he was also tracking Artemis. Al W5LUA: And then a 20 meter, uh, AMSAT DL dish over in, uh, over in Germany was tracking it. Al W5LUA: And Barry, I know, was working on it. Excuse me. Al W5LUA: Uh, and also CT1BYM. Al W5LUA: and several others, so I thought, well, I might as well give it a shot with my 5-meter dish. Al W5LUA: So, this is my dish. It's been up since 1995, I think. So, what is that, 30-some-odd years. Al W5LUA: And it's a fiberglass dish, but it works well to 10 GHz. But that's my primary dish. Al W5LUA: And previously, you know, there were a couple Lunar prospectors out there, and I know there's another one out there now, but. Al W5LUA: In 1998, I copied the lunar prospect around 2273 MHz, and then the Japanese lunar orbiter. Al W5LUA: On 2263. And what was kind of neat about that as they were orbiting the Earth was I can peek on moon noise, and then I peak on their signal, and I can tell. Al W5LUA: you know, we'll say what quadrant of the moon that they were in as they were going around. And what was really neat is when, uh. Al W5LUA: They go behind the moon, and the Doppler changes rather rapidly, and it goes high in frequency, then you lose it. Al W5LUA: Until it comes back around again. Al W5LUA: So, having had some success back then, I thought, well, might as well give Artemis a shot. Al W5LUA: And, of course, keep note that these are not in our hand bands. They are below the handbands, 2273 and 2263. Al W5LUA: So, what does Artemis II use for communication? Well, they've got a lot of sophisticated systems, and uh… Al W5LUA: One of them is an optical communication system using laser, and also. Al W5LUA: They use a deep space network and what they call a near space network. Well, those particular networks really consist of 2GHz, 8.4 GHz, and also 31 or 32GHz. Al W5LUA: And deep space is really more for objects that are further out than the Moon. Al W5LUA: Yeah, I think it's like, um… Al W5LUA: Oh, a million and a half miles or so is… Al W5LUA: kind of bridges between near space and deep space, so… you know, Moon's not that far away, it's only a quarter million miles, so that's kind of easy, right? Al W5LUA: And then the traditional mode of communication is the S-band, and that's kind of nice, because it allows, uh. Al W5LUA: Uh, me to use, you know, my existing system, if you will. Al W5LUA: Even though it is kind of out of band, but why not? And they use it for telemetry, voice, and data. Al W5LUA: And none of which I could really copy, other than seeing, uh, strange, uh. Al W5LUA: Uh, data, uh, out there, and a carrier. Al W5LUA: And, um… but I thought, well, it'll still be just kind of fun to see what I can hear. Al W5LUA: And look at the signal levels. And Artemis uses 22.16.5. Al W5LUA: So, if I had an SDR capable of that, that would be easy, but I didn't, so I gotta be creative and build something. Al W5LUA: But before I go ahead and do that, I thought, well, how can I track this thing? Because, you know, once it's to the moon, I mean, I've got coordinates for the moon, that's easy. Al W5LUA: But if they're on their way to the moon, I can't aim at the moon and hope to hear them. Al W5LUA: Well, um, I think it was SamG4DDK that suggested ntyo.com. Al W5LUA: And initially, I got too much advertising in there, but it seemed to have quieted itself down. Al W5LUA: And I use that as well to tell me approximately where it is. Al W5LUA: Even though I think the distance calculations are… Al W5LUA: are off, and I can't tell you why, but I can tell you, though, that once it landed. Al W5LUA: It said the altitude was minus 1,000 miles. Uh, obviously that's not true. Al W5LUA: So I figure, well, okay, that kind of confirms the fact that the altitude calculation wasn't exactly right. Al W5LUA: Or I don't understand how they're making the calculation, one or the other, but at least the, the as and else seem to be pretty accurate that it, uh… Al W5LUA: spit out, and what's really kind of nice, even if you don't know where you live, if you're connected to… if you have an IP connection. Al W5LUA: It'll give you the coordinates based on your IP address. Al W5LUA: So that's another way to go. But anyway, it came in pretty good at 33.1 and minus 96.6 for me. Al W5LUA: So I just let it use the IP address, which I think actually is out of McKinney. Al W5LUA: Um, the other, um… Al W5LUA: Website that is probably the most accurate. Al W5LUA: Even though it doesn't give you a lot of information, or I haven't found it yet, um, is the, uh… Al W5LUA: Unistellar, uh, website. Al W5LUA: And it's a move… it's for moving targets. And this is kind of slick. Al W5LUA: And, uh, I used this to just to kind of confirm that the other website wasn't, uh. Al W5LUA: too far off, and you select a target, so I selected Artemis II. Al W5LUA: you select an address, you can let it, you know, use your IP address. Al W5LUA: and you give it a range on the date and the time, and it generates data, and I didn't pay a lot of attention to the increment. Al W5LUA: I just figure, well, I'll kind of get close. Al W5LUA: And, uh, I should be able to peek up on it. Al W5LUA: This gives you some idea of the data that comes out. Al W5LUA: Uh, the right ascension and declination, if you had a polar mount. Al W5LUA: For me, uh, as Elmount, it was at 16 degrees altitude and 141 azimuth. Al W5LUA: And what… the way it turns out. Al W5LUA: The moon is at the worst place in the sky for us, because obviously they're headed on a straight line to the moon, or fairly straight. Al W5LUA: But, uh, the moon right now is in the south, it's at apogee. Al W5LUA: And… it's extremely low in the sky, like 20 degrees or so. Al W5LUA: And there was a time… Al W5LUA: Um, you know, when the, uh… Al W5LUA: Um… Al W5LUA: When the Artemis was even below that, and that's getting a little low for me in terms of, you know. Al W5LUA: not screwing up cables and such, because I'm not used to looking at the moon at the low altitude anyway. Al W5LUA: But, uh, this, um, uh, the data here agreed pretty close with, uh, the N2. Al W5LUA: Um… oh, shoot, let me go back here. Al W5LUA: I don't want to get it wrong. This guy, uh, N2YO, N2 Yankee Oscar. Al W5LUA: So I was the least happy that I could at least track the, uh, the moon, or the, uh, Artemis. Al W5LUA: And what really kind of got me going was, uh, K0PRT, this is Alex, K6QXY, posted this. Al W5LUA: This is kind of early on, on April 3rd, so it's, what, 2 or 3 days after launch. Al W5LUA: And it was showing, uh, this waveform, which was really part of a sine x over x plot. Al W5LUA: And I was hoping maybe I could see something similar to that, but I wasn't… I never really knew, you know, when it would be transmitting this, so it's kind of like potluck. Al W5LUA: And here's another plot by CT1BYM. Uh, I'm not sure how big his dish is. Al W5LUA: Uh, but I think it's… I remember seeing a picture. It's a mesh dish, so it's probably at least 3 or 4 meters. Al W5LUA: In size. And this is kind of the waveform that I was looking for. It's peaked on 2216.5, and you got a couple side lobes there. Al W5LUA: And I assume that they're transmitting data, or, you know, could even be voice, because this is also a voice channel. Al W5LUA: So, the first day for me was April… Al W5LUA: And I had… I had no success. I had hooked up, uh, my down converter to a couple of… Al W5LUA: amplifiers, and I looked at them, I spectrum analyzer, because somebody said that they could see it on there. Al W5LUA: And I saw nothing, but then realized that the ascents was backwards, and EME operation is, uh… Al W5LUA: We transmit right hand and receive left hand, and… Al W5LUA: Unfortunately, uh, I had to get the receiver over on the right-hand port. Al W5LUA: And I really didn't feel like going out there and changing things over. Al W5LUA: So I thought, well, I'll just disconnect the, uh, power, uh, going to the, uh, or the claystron going to the, uh, transmit cable. Al W5LUA: And I'll attach a down converter there, capable of receiving a 2216. Al W5LUA: and like I mentioned before, I didn't have an SDR. Al W5LUA: Uh, that would, you know, be capable of receiving that, and of course that'll change in the future. Al W5LUA: But I built up a converter, so it would down-convert to a 10 meters on my Flex 6600. Al W5LUA: All I cared was to see the signal itself. Al W5LUA: Well, if you're going to build a super converter, or down converter, you need a filter. Al W5LUA: And fortunately, uh, Kent gave me this filter quite a while ago. I never ended up using it. Al W5LUA: Probably because it's… 2304 is up towards the high end. This filter covers roughly 2180. Al W5LUA: The 2320, and you can see where 21, or 2216.5 is, that's the cursor. Al W5LUA: So I thought, well, this would be ideal. It provides a lot of, uh, LO rejection. Al W5LUA: and image rejection. So that's the heart of my converter. Al W5LUA: And here's a simple converter I built up. Al W5LUA: Um, I had to get a preamp. I know some preamps that Demi builds and also Tommy builds have some saw devices in them. Well. Al W5LUA: Sol devices cover 2400 to 2483, or, you know, frequencies higher than 2304. Al W5LUA: Uh, but I didn't get any, or didn't have any gain down at 2216. Al W5LUA: So one of Tommy's preamps was broadband, and I used it to drive this ZQL1900, which is a high dynamic range. Al W5LUA: 1900 MHz LNA and that bandpass filter, and I found a mixer that seemed to be rated at. Al W5LUA: The frequency, and my… I needed some sort of an IF amplifier. Al W5LUA: And I tried various things, like some broadband amplifiers, and I was having all sorts of trouble with. Al W5LUA: uh, LO getting into the noise figure meter, so… Al W5LUA: I found an old Janelle 144PV preamp, and you guys might remember what that is. It's like a 3N. Al W5LUA: 140 and 2 stages of, uh, bandpass filtering, one on the input and one on the output. Al W5LUA: It looked good on the noise figure meter, but it was not necessarily a broadband, um, down converter because of that. Al W5LUA: And then I, uh, use my HP signal generator at, uh, 2072 MHz. Al W5LUA: And I had a noise figure of 1.2 dB and gain of 28.7. Al W5LUA: At, uh, 2216, and I thought, that's more than enough. Al W5LUA: So, on April 6th, the morning of the day that Artemis circled around the moon, so we're on the left side of the moon. Al W5LUA: And, uh, the signal is, uh… Al W5LUA: Uh, it's Doppler shifted below because it's leaving us, and I just saw a signal at 822 Zulu. Al W5LUA: And then it disappeared. Al W5LUA: And, uh, that was confirmed by Mzeroi, and Pete and his crew up there in Kansas. Al W5LUA: They were… I think they were up all night, and of course, 0822 is not 8.22 in the morning. Al W5LUA: That's 322 AM Central Time, so… that's tough. Al W5LUA: To get up at those hours. So I trekked Artemis for the next few hours with varying success, hoping I would see the. Al W5LUA: the, uh… I'll call it the beacon again, and I figured the beacon was there so they can do Doppler measurements, and. Al W5LUA: I just wanted to take a look at it, but I knew it was below the nominal frequency, so I knew it was still going away. Al W5LUA: And at 10:15 Zulu, which is a couple hours later, besides getting tired, I started to see something happening down at the. Al W5LUA: You can see it on the top plot, down at the low end. Al W5LUA: And, um, I don't know that… you probably can't see my convert… my cursor, I'm sure. Al W5LUA: Uh, and then there's also another signal down here in the bottom. Al W5LUA: You can, okay. Alright, so there's some broadband… Al W5LUA: Uh, signal up here. Al W5LUA: And this is over in there, uh… Al W5LUA: Narrower passband, if you will, or narrower frequency range. Here is a broad. Al W5LUA: Frequency range. This is from 2213 to 2219, so maybe 6 megahertz. Al W5LUA: And this slope is most likely because of that Genel preamp. I… I'm not used to building broadband. Al W5LUA: flat receivers. Al W5LUA: But you can also see this signal, which is not the same one I'm seeing up here. Al W5LUA: So I imagine if I went down in frequency on this slice up here, I could probably see this a little bit better. Al W5LUA: But that may have been… I mean, that's a big signal right there, so I think I just kind of missed that at 10:15, but none of these last for long. Al W5LUA: And I've got no idea what schedule they're on. I mean, they're on their own schedule, and you just gotta sit yourself in front of the radio. Al W5LUA: Now, I know Pete Sias has had some other connections to some NASA sites, which kind of… Al W5LUA: Allows you to find out what they're doing, but I didn't… didn't have knowledge of that. Al W5LUA: I'm just kind of the new kid. Al W5LUA: So here's another one. This is, what, 1130 Zulu, and I see 3 little. Al W5LUA: Signals right here, and you can see some signals in between. Al W5LUA: So, it looked like a kind of a picket fence in a way, and you can see it looks a little ratty down here, like there's something going on. Al W5LUA: And here, 1134, another… another shot. Al W5LUA: 1154, a pretty good-sized signal, uh, down here. Al W5LUA: And, uh, actually, it's probably… Al W5LUA: uh, 15 dB over the noise, but it's got some real fast Doppler on it, and I gotta tell you, during the day. Al W5LUA: Uh, when I monitor this, and there's nothing else on the band, this is a super quiet. Al W5LUA: piece of land, if you will. It's just too bad our 2304 handband doesn't look this clean. Al W5LUA: And the same with 2400, but this is, uh, this is like sacred land here, frequency-wise. Al W5LUA: And I can see why they want to keep everybody away from it, but just kind of nice to… Al W5LUA: I see a clean 13 centimeter, uh, uh, spectrum for once. Al W5LUA: So, that was… that was April 6th, April 7. Al W5LUA: Artemis had already gone to the backside of the moon, the dark side of the moon, the Doppler's now positive. Al W5LUA: He's still about 200,000 miles away. Al W5LUA: And the next few slides I have show. Al W5LUA: The primary beacon signal at 2216, plus Doppler, and various other artifacts. Al W5LUA: So now I'm starting to get happy. Here's the signal at 2216.5. Al W5LUA: and uh… looks like maybe a couple kilohertz of Doppler. Now… Al W5LUA: I was just initially looking at this in the CW mode. Al W5LUA: And I did go over to the upper side beam mode so I could look at the, uh, the actual zero beat frequency. Al W5LUA: Because theoretically, if there's no Doppler, and I'm on upper sideband, I should see a zero beat at 2216.5. Al W5LUA: So the signal… I took this with… I don't think I was even peaked on… Al W5LUA: Artemis, because I lost it the day before, and I'll be darned if I was gonna lose it today. So, signals do get better, and it may be because of my tracking. Al W5LUA: Here's that 0817, we're a little bit better. You know, on the pan adapter, it shows. Al W5LUA: maybe 20 dB out of the noise. Al W5LUA: you know, I played around a little bit with the passband just to see it a little bit better. Al W5LUA: I don't like having it zero beat with the cursor, because it's kind of hard to see it. Sometimes that kind of nulls it out, and… Al W5LUA: I'd rather have it, um… Al W5LUA: Up in the audio passband, where I can at least listen to it, but you can see it's getting a little stronger, and it's actually… Al W5LUA: Uh, you can see it down here in the broadband plot. It's a… it's a pretty good signal. I mean, approaching. Al W5LUA: Oh, it does approach… Al W5LUA: Let's see… yeah, this one here, 0847. Al W5LUA: This is probably the strongest signal. Al W5LUA: And, uh, you can see it down here. Al W5LUA: Pretty substantial right here in a wider passband. Now, I did this out. Al W5LUA: But these are… these are spurs down at 29 megahertz, because my IF is 29. Al W5LUA: 100Hz. Al W5LUA: But still, uh, I was very happy, you know, with the size of this signal. Al W5LUA: And, uh, it's not S5, that just happens to be the noise level of the receiver. Al W5LUA: I don't mind the higher noise levels, because it tells me that the system's working. If I had everything resting down on S0, I wouldn't know if it was working or not. Al W5LUA: So, uh… but I hardly use an S-meter anymore. Al W5LUA: I use the, uh, the pan adapter. Al W5LUA: So, I was pretty happy with this particular, uh. Al W5LUA: Day, if you will. Al W5LUA: There's 0848, another… another good-looking signal. Al W5LUA: But it's actually peaking almost 30 dB out of the noise. Al W5LUA: And 0901, the carrier disappeared again. I'm glad I got up early to look for it. Al W5LUA: And I say most likely switch to a communications or data handling mode. I'm not sure, you know, what schedule they're on. I know N0OI. Al W5LUA: Uh, had some… Al W5LUA: Connection with some site that told them, uh, what actually was being sent at the time. Al W5LUA: But I didn't, uh, have a chance to look into that. Al W5LUA: And yesterday morning, before it splashed down. Al W5LUA: I, I got up at, you know, this is what, 6, uh, 6:30. I got up at 6:30, and I thought, oh, what the heck, I'm gonna go listen for it. Al W5LUA: And I saw something even different, but this is probably similar to what I saw earlier when it was further out. Al W5LUA: And I can actually see kind of a cluster here of signals that seem to be in higher amplitude than out here. Al W5LUA: And especially since this thing is trailing off in my receiver, I think this was really… this is the cluster right in here. Al W5LUA: that I'm seeing on the top graph. Barry VE4MA: I think that's your sine X over X, and… Al W5LUA: Yeah, I think this is the closest I've gotten to it, yeah. Al W5LUA: So, but that's not anything compared to what each size got here. Al W5LUA: As I show you… I'll show you some slides from him here in a second. Al W5LUA: I just kind of want to summarize what I was doing here. Al W5LUA: my noise figure, effective noise figure for this was about 3 dB. Al W5LUA: at the antenna, because I had a 1.2 dB noise figure. Al W5LUA: 1.9 dB a heliax, uh, getting to the, uh, the feed. Al W5LUA: And, uh, so, you know, with a 3 dB noise figure. Al W5LUA: And the third… roughly 39 dBI again, and 30 dB of… Al W5LUA: Signal to noise ratio tops. Al W5LUA: I think even a 20 dBi antenna could have seen the signal at 10 dB over the noise. Al W5LUA: And if I had a lower noise figure LNA, uh, out there, would it be even better? Al W5LUA: The problem with this is, if you're gonna get out there with a Helix antenna. Al W5LUA: and 20 DBI, you're gonna have to track it for probably hours, just so you can see. Al W5LUA: You know, everything that it's transmitting, but I'm sure they're on some sort of a schedule. Al W5LUA: But it always seemed like the, uh, the tone was in there earlier, and, uh, you know, maybe at 4 in the morning or whatever, you know, they got their wake-up call out there, possibly. I don't know. Al W5LUA: But, uh, if you're willing to spend the time at it, you know, it was some… it was fun. Al W5LUA: Now, Pete Syas, um, Pete has offered to do a presentation for us at a future meeting. Now, Pete and his crew up there have a 28-foot dish. Al W5LUA: and they're using, uh, what, a HackRF. Actually, he said he had two HackRFs. One of them. Al W5LUA: was sending… it was, uh, receiving IQ data, and they did this for hours up there. Al W5LUA: And, uh, they stored the IQ data, and now I guess they're in the process of crunching the data to look at Doppler, and that was what they primarily wanted to do. Al W5LUA: He used a second HackRF for just kind of tuning around, if you will, which was kind of basically what I was doing. Al W5LUA: With my flex. But there's his primary signal. Al W5LUA: And that was at 0730. That's pretty early in the morning, that's, uh… Al W5LUA: Oh, shoot, what is that? That's 2.30 in the morning. I'm sleeping. Al W5LUA: Here's a little bit later, 0945, and you can see some sort of a… Al W5LUA: Modulation going on, I'm not sure exactly what was being transmitted there. Al W5LUA: But this is the best plot. Al W5LUA: And, uh, I'm not sure why I don't see the sidebands in there. Al W5LUA: Unless, you know, they really are in there, but further down. But this is a nice cluster of, uh… Al W5LUA: I guess a modulation waveform of such. Al W5LUA: But, uh, I never quite saw it, but I didn't have as big a dish as what he has and what K0PRT has. Al W5LUA: But it was just a lot of fun. Al W5LUA: You know, kind of a moment's notice, uh, after they launch to try to get something going. Al W5LUA: And, uh… Al W5LUA: I, uh, enjoyed it, even though I didn't get a lot of sleep. Al W5LUA: So, um, I threw this slide in here after I sent my file to you. Al W5LUA: Uh, Jim, because, uh, the Amateur Deep Space Network is where a lot of guys hang out, and thanks for reminding me today, Barry, in your email. Al W5LUA: So I went out there and, um, actually applied for, um… Al W5LUA: membership in this group and was accepted, and I think in the future I'll try to be a little bit more prepared. Al W5LUA: Um, for the next event, whenever it is. Al W5LUA: So, like I mentioned, Pete was… Pete offered to speak. Al W5LUA: Uh, at a future meeting, which I think would be great. And, uh, but for me, it was just fun to copy it, hear the beacon signal. Al W5LUA: I did, uh, decide that, you know, considering. Al W5LUA: Not all the, uh, the, uh… Al W5LUA: lunar orbiters and landers are on the same frequency, it's probably time to go buy a HackRF or something like that. Al W5LUA: And, uh, maybe I use external filtering just to, uh. Al W5LUA: keep the HackRF from being overloaded. But I was really pleasantly surprised, like I mentioned, that that band was as clean as it was there. Al W5LUA: So that's encouraging. And maybe next time I'll… I'll consider recording some signals. Al W5LUA: Uh, like, uh, Pete and the other guys were doing. Now. Al W5LUA: Pete did mention that there is a… Al W5LUA: a Korean orbiter on 2260.8, and actually, when I googled it, it looked like it had been active for a couple of years. Al W5LUA: And the Lunar Prospector was active for a couple years as well, so there's always, uh… Al W5LUA: A signal to look forward to, uh… Al W5LUA: Or look for on… on… around the moon. Al W5LUA: So, I'm looking forward to the next event. Um… Al W5LUA: Hopefully you enjoyed the presentation. Are there any questions or comments out there? Pat W5VY: Alice, this is Pat, W-5-V-Y. Do you have any idea about the, uh… Al W5LUA: Mm-hmm. Pat W5VY: Oh, the transmit in, what the ERP might be, what kind of antennas, power levels they're running. Al W5LUA: No. In fact, when I googled it, it looked like that was, uh, uh, secret information. Pat W5VY: Uh-huh. Al W5LUA: So, maybe that was just a search engine, but yeah, I tried to look for that. I don't know how it… Al W5LUA: You know, on the Lunar Prospector, we knew what it was, because I put it in my presentation back then. Al W5LUA: I forget what it was, but uh… Al W5LUA: And it was also on a different circularity. Al W5LUA: Because I didn't have to change ports, if you will, back then. So, I'm not sure if… Al W5LUA: If they're gonna, um, you know, keep the circular polarity the same as it is now, or why they even changed it, I have no idea. Al W5LUA: But I don't have any particulars on it. That'd be something that we can ask Pete Saez, or maybe. Pat W5VY: Okay. Barry VE4MA: I think I've got some information now, I'll look for it while we're talking here. I think they were… transmitter was 10 watts, I think, but I don't know what the antenna was. Al W5LUA: You don't… Al W5LUA: Okay. Al W5LUA: Okay. Al W5LUA: I assume that, um… Al W5LUA: All this stuff burned up when it separated before the capsule came in. Al W5LUA: That kind of your understanding? Bob N5BRG: Probably did, that's right. Al W5LUA: Yeah, because it looks like they're… Bob N5BRG: I can comment a little bit more on this, too. The Deep Space Network guys did work really hard on this project. Bob N5BRG: And actually, NASA put out a request some time ago for people that wanted to participate. Bob N5BRG: That had the tracking capability to monitor the… this carrier. Bob N5BRG: And, uh, against real accurate, uh, GPS-type timing. Bob N5BRG: to provide Doppler shift information back to confirm the location of the spacecraft. Bob N5BRG: They actually had the amateur community involved, and if you look on the Deep Space Exploration Society's webpage. Al W5LUA: Right. Bob N5BRG: There's an article there about that. Bob N5BRG: And they pretty heavily, uh, are involved with Sarah. Bob N5BRG: And there's a guy there, Rick K0GD, which has been in the business of making GPS systems for a long time. He was helping them a lot with the. Bob N5BRG: GPS tracking things, and I think because they were accepted and involved. Bob N5BRG: And other people were, too. They were getting this inside information, like you were talking about, about the schedule. Al W5LUA: Right. Bob N5BRG: And I have one, uh, thing that they posted here that I could share and show you if you're interested in seeing it. Bob N5BRG: That was posted. Al W5LUA: Yeah, do you want to do it now, or… Bob N5BRG: Yeah, I can do it now if you want to. Al W5LUA: Let me stop sharing. Bob N5BRG: Uh… Bob N5BRG: Well, I'll just share the entire screen and then get it to come up. Bob N5BRG: Okay, I can't do it now, because I didn't have the authority on my system. I can come back later and show you the graph. Bob N5BRG: But it was posted on the Sarah website, showing there. Bob N5BRG: tracking information in the software looked very similar to what you were showing, but what they did was they showed, like, a continuous Doppler shift. Bob N5BRG: Over time that they got from monitoring the thing. Barry VE4MA: The EIRP was plus 49 dBm. Barry VE4MA: So what's that? 80… 80 watts ERP? Al W5LUA: Do you think that the antenna had any gain? Barry VE4MA: Not a heck of a lot. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Was that EIRP? Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Al W5LUA: At least 10 watts, right? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): On that. But that would be, um… Barry VE4MA: Well, 50 would be 100 watts, so 49 is 80. Al W5LUA: Yeah, I know, but at least 10 was some gain, though. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, it could be, but… Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Al W5LUA: Well, anyway, it was, um, it was fun, and it was a short project. Al W5LUA: And, uh, I think it's prompted me to try to get more involved next time, but… Al W5LUA: Not to the level those guys are, I mean, that's… Al W5LUA: you know, when I talked to Pete, he was like a zombie, because he'd been up all night, and he had some help from. Al W5LUA: Some other fellows, and uh… so it was a nice project for them, so looking forward to hearing from them. Steve K5MNZ: Al, this is Steve, K5MNZ. I was curious what the… what the Doppler sounded like. Did it… was it constantly moving across your… Steve K5MNZ: Uh, receiver, were you having to retune it, or did you track it automatically, or what? Al W5LUA: It wasn't moving very fast, but I was not… that was not my primary goal, was to do that. Al W5LUA: It looks like Barry's got something here, just from K6Q, uh… Al W5LUA: VHF? Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Barry VE4MA: I don't know what the heck Zoom is doing for me here. Al W5LUA: I see something. Barry VE4MA: Are you seeing something for me? Al W5LUA: Yeah. Bob N5BRG: That was for me, I'm sorry, that was for me, I got it to share all of a sudden. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh. Al W5LUA: Oh, okay. It's from Bob. Bob N5BRG: Did you see the graph? Bob N5BRG: I'll share it again if you want to look at it. I couldn't get my microphone turned on. Bob N5BRG: It was on top of it. But this is the graph they posted on the CERA website, showing the… Bob N5BRG: same sort of… it looks like the same thing you had on one of your slides, in terms of the stuff over on the left, so I think somebody put this app together to help track this thing. Al W5LUA: Mm-hmm. Bob N5BRG: And it looks like it's bearing wildly, but this is only a… it looks like a 300 second interval here that they had on the left, so I don't know how their software works for sure, but… Bob N5BRG: Says it, so… Bob N5BRG: It says log, but I guess that means that they're logging the information, not that it's a logarithmic. Bob N5BRG: Curve… Bob N5BRG: But that's… that's just something they… they put out. I'm thinking they're going to put up a story later. Bob N5BRG: With more details about their whole event, probably. Al W5LUA: And after they regurgitate all the data, at least that's the impression I got from, uh. Al W5LUA: Pete Syiff. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Hey Bob, that looked like they had high watermarks on that right side graph. Bob N5BRG: Uh, I don't know… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, the top one, I glanced at it just as you turned it off. Bob N5BRG: I can… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Earth orbit. Barry VE4MA: Oh, yes. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, 15 to 30 dB SNR. Bob N5BRG: Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. So those are kind of the, the, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Mid-max, I guess, that they… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Chose to mark there. Bob N5BRG: But you study this curve right here, or this information, you kind of got insight into how they were going about doing it for helping NASA anyway, I think. Bob N5BRG: I'm sure they're proud of what they did. They worked for several months trying to get all the pieces right. Bob N5BRG: And they were very worried about their tracking system being able to keep up and. Bob N5BRG: And to track it, and uh… apparently got it all worked out. Al W5LUA: Yeah, because, you know, when I'm tracking the moon. Al W5LUA: at least on the upper bands, if I'm off a little bit, I can change the Doppler as I sweep across the moon. Al W5LUA: So you gotta be, uh, you know, dead nuts in the center to get, uh… Al W5LUA: Accurate information. I'm not sure I could, uh, do that. David - KG5EIU TX: Do you, uh, Al, do you get a lot of, uh, EME. David - KG5EIU TX: Contacts? With your setup? Al W5LUA: Uh, yeah, I have. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. David - KG5EIU TX: Tens, hundreds, or thousands? What kind of… Al W5LUA: I don't know, it's probably thousands total in the last 25 years. I mean, to be honest with you. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay. Al W5LUA: Um, if you think it's pretty, you know, sparse on terrestrially. Al W5LUA: Uh, go to the moon. You'll find activity. Al W5LUA: Um, almost daily there, especially, uh, 1296. Al W5LUA: But, you know, even 432, 2 meters, 9.02, kind of by invitation, if you will, because there's so few people on. Al W5LUA: But 1296, 2304, um, very active. Al W5LUA: Uh, 3G, less so, because it's, um… Al W5LUA: It's not quite a… Al W5LUA: how would you describe it? I guess internationally, it's just not as popular. Al W5LUA: Uh, 5760… Al W5LUA: Is, you know, less than 2304. Al W5LUA: but then you get up to 10 gigahertz, there's a lot of activity. And the solar cooker. Al W5LUA: That the guys, uh… David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. Al W5LUA: I've been talking about, you know, if you Google or Amazon solar cooker. David - KG5EIU TX: I've got one in my garage, in a box. Al W5LUA: Yeah, I think it's, like, a meter and a half or something, and a lot of guys are using that on 10 GHz and 1296. David - KG5EIU TX: 80 bucks. Yeah. Al W5LUA: And, uh, it works very well, but there's a ton of activity on the moon. David - KG5EIU TX: What, uh, if you had to pick one band. Al W5LUA: That's worth that. David - KG5EIU TX: All in, what band would you pick? David - KG5EIU TX: If you wanted to make a boatload of EME contact. Al W5LUA: For my… for my solar cooker? David - KG5EIU TX: No, no, for any, all, all things aside, if you said, if you were a new guy, and you said, hey. David - KG5EIU TX: You can pick one band to make EME contacts. What band would you suggest? Al W5LUA: Hold on. David - KG5EIU TX: To make the most contacts. Al W5LUA: Sorry about that. Al W5LUA: Uh, it's kind of a toss-up between 1296 and 10GB, I guess. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay, very good, thank you. Al W5LUA: Hmm, sorry about that. David - KG5EIU TX: And, I mean, you make a morning, noon, and night, like, doesn't matter what time of day as long as you've got. David - KG5EIU TX: Visibility to the moon, you're good to go, right? Al W5LUA: Yeah, I mean, yeah, unless it's sitting behind the sun or something, or in front of the sun. David - KG5EIU TX: Well, yeah, yeah, you gotta have visibility, yeah, okay, yeah. Al W5LUA: Yeah, like you say, visibility, yeah. And… Al W5LUA: when it's at perigee, it's better than Apogee by a couple dB, and we're… Al W5LUA: Where the moon was this past week. Al W5LUA: where the orbiter was, was near Apogee on the moon. That's why it was so low in the sky. David - KG5EIU TX: uh… David - KG5EIU TX: So, you said lower was better, or higher? Al W5LUA: Well, declination-wise, at Apogee. Al W5LUA: Um… well, I gotta be careful there. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Al W5LUA: It does shift around. It's kind of like a 20-year… Al W5LUA: Um… slow peak in there, but right now. Al W5LUA: In fact, I can't remember if that was Perigee or not. Al W5LUA: It's just low deck. Al W5LUA: but low deck doesn't always occur. Uh, it's… I think it's occurring. Al W5LUA: Closer to Apogee now, and Perigee, fortunately, is coming around. Al W5LUA: At high decks, which is really nice, because you get a lot of moon time, at least for northern. Al W5LUA: Um, uh, latitudes. But it does rotate, and… David - KG5EIU TX: Okay. Al W5LUA: be about another 20 years, and this'll repeat, but there have been times when Perigee was in the South. Al W5LUA: And, um, you know, I guess it's great for working… Al W5LUA: Guys south of the equator, but… Al W5LUA: Also, the Milky Way's down there, not great for 2 meters. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay. David - KG5EIU TX: Thank you. Al W5LUA: Hmm. Al W5LUA: Barry, did you have anything else you wanted to add? Al W5LUA: I know your experiences was kind of short to live there, but… Barry VE4MA: Yeah, well, I… the only thing I would add is with that SDR, uh… Barry VE4MA: And I'm not sure what the HackRF is like, but I was using an SDR play. Barry VE4MA: Was it RSP1B, which died a few days after I went to use it. Barry VE4MA: For some odd reason, but it would allow you to store the IQ data. Barry VE4MA: And so, what, uh… Barry VE4MA: what, uh, Pete down there in Kansas was doing was storing the IQ data, and then I think they're shipping that off to NASA for analysis. Barry VE4MA: Uh, I think he got about 5 terabytes worth of IQ data. Barry VE4MA: Um, the other thing, like, they were switching modes, and I gather that, uh, when the crew was sleeping, they were… Barry VE4MA: They were powering down the wideband facility, so that sine X over X, uh, dome. Al W5LUA: Mm-hmm. Barry VE4MA: Uh, would disappear, and I don't know what they were putting up instead, but something that was saving them power, I guess, so… Barry VE4MA: Uh, yeah, so, I mean, it doesn't… it wouldn't take, uh, like, that SDR play that I had, uh, was about half price of what the, uh. Al W5LUA: Yeah, it makes sense. Barry VE4MA: the fancy ones that transmit and receive, and yet it was capable of dumping the data down if I'd had enough signal, so… Barry VE4MA: And, uh… Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I guess that's about it. Barry VE4MA: I was going to say on, uh, for EME bands, if you want to work a lot of countries, go on, uh, on 1296. Uh, if you don't want to go with a bigger dish, like. Barry VE4MA: on 10 gigs, a 1 meter dish and 10 watts will get the job done at best of time conditions, so that's almost a portable rig. Well, it is a portable rig, uh… David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. Barry VE4MA: You know, what… David - KG5EIU TX: But you say 10 watts, though. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Yeah, well, that's not so easy to do, but it is easier than, you know, 100 watt class, so… David - KG5EIU TX: Well, it's 600 watts on, uh, the 1.2, right? Barry VE4MA: Yeah. David - KG5EIU TX: Um… David - KG5EIU TX: Alright, well, that's… Barry VE4MA: Yeah, 1296 would be the easiest, Ben, to get on, and activity-wise, it's gonna be, uh… Barry VE4MA: Higher than 10 gigs, but… Barry VE4MA: Depending on your situation, 10 gigs is a good band, for sure. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay, good, good to know. I didn't… I… David - KG5EIU TX: I hadn't realized there would be so much activity on the moon at 10 GHz. David - KG5EIU TX: But, you know. David - KG5EIU TX: A 3-foot dish is pretty manageable. Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's the beauty of the 10 gigs, is… David - KG5EIU TX: Um… David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. Al W5LUA: If you want to go online, um… Al W5LUA: Whenever there's activity on 432 or above, or even 222. Al W5LUA: HB9Q logger is where most people hang out. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay. Al W5LUA: So if you just do Hb9q.ch. Al W5LUA: And, uh, go, uh, get on the logger. Al W5LUA: And, uh, pick a band, and somebody may say, hey, are you about ready to get on the air, or what, you know, what's your situation? But you can just say, hey, I'm an SWL trying to learn, you know? Al W5LUA: They're real friendly people. Al W5LUA: Um, that I've found. Al W5LUA: But then you get some idea. Al W5LUA: Of who's on the band, and you can also click on a particular call. Al W5LUA: So, when you get to a logger, uh, sometimes you may have to be patient, but put your cursor on, uh. Al W5LUA: Either his name or the call, and it should show you what the person was running. Al W5LUA: So you'll have some idea. David - KG5EIU TX: You said it was HB9Q? Al W5LUA: Yes. David - KG5EIU TX: Ah, here it is, yeah, okay. Al W5LUA: And he's got it set up where you have to… it'll… it'll log you out after a day. Used to be able to sit in it, but uh… Al W5LUA: There's so much congestion there, because there's so many people that once you get in, you're good for probably 24 hours, and then it'll… Al W5LUA: It'll, uh, sign you out, even if you don't. Al W5LUA: Not a big deal. David - KG5EIU TX: Gotcha. Okay. David - KG5EIU TX: Well, one step at a time, I'm… David - KG5EIU TX: That's my goal, is to get to EME, so… David - KG5EIU TX: That's where… that's what we're working towards. Al W5LUA: I'll have to get you over when I come back from this next trip and give you a little demo. David - KG5EIU TX: I would love that. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Probably should make an open house out of it out because there's several people that would probably come. Al W5LUA: Okay. Al W5LUA: Well, that's it, Jim. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Thank you. Any other questions for Al before we move on? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Let's move on to… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): propagation. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Presentation. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I see a couple of people that are here that have contributed and collaborated, so I just wanna… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, ask you to keep me on the straight and narrow here in case I… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): missed something. Let me reset this, because I really want this in, uh, presenter mode. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now I'm going to show my ignorance. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): we'll go ahead and get started. I'm gonna do the best I can here. I have notes on some of these slides to try to keep me from forgetting some stuff. Anyway, this is part 2. Um, we gave a Part 1. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, presentation at the last meeting, which was just that a month ago. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And there's been a lot of changes, um, and, uh, so many that it's been a little hard to keep up with, um, for my sake, and in fact, if I didn't have help from AI. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I literally couldn't keep up with the changes. So, uh, let's jump into it here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, first of all, um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Gotta move something out of the way here. Uh, the, um, title of this slide is Significant Discoveries, because, um, we stumbled onto this kind of, uh, as a curiosity. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): item. I work with AI at work, uh, quite a bit, and we've always wanted some tools around propagation that were better than. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): what we were doing at the time, which was a lot of guessing and scratching our head after sometimes something good would happen. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And just, um, writing it off when it… things didn't work. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You know? So, um… several times I've said, well, I'd give anything to have a better propagation tool, but I wanted it for the higher bands. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, you know, but talking 24 and 47 GHz and higher. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, in this presentation, uh, we're going to recap the beginnings and the changes that have led to a more complex project. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, without saying more, the single biggest boost to the project is the collaboration. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): of multiple team members. First of all is Graham McIntire. He's in attendance here. Whiskey 5 India Sierra Papa. He's an engineer with in-depth experience of back-end server functionality. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And he owns a wireless internet service with multiple microwave backhaul systems. So, in Graham, we have. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): An amateur radio operator with professional experience. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Who is acquainted with basic propagation, also had this strong desire to understand. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The anomalies, uh, in propagation. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, and understood the terminology, um, and has a family history with, uh, his father, Greg. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I don't know what else, but those are the things I do know about Graham, and there'll be more about him to come here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Joe Jareka is the next one I'll mention. November 5, Papa Yankee Kilo. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Joe is a senior meteorologist. He's really a weather scientist. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): with 20 years of radar experience, uh, stationed at, uh, NWS Lubbock. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And he has been… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, responding to our ask of… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, scrutiny on our approach and strategies. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): He has given us responses, suggestions, and compliments. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, and critiques. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I'll also mention Mike Lavelle, uh, K6ML. Mike, I don't know all of his background, but I do know he's a retired engineer at Sun Microsystems. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I do know he holds the 122GHz DX world record holder. He is the holder. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And that, in and of itself, um, has a whole story behind it, and the… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): somewhat manual calculations over the science involved, uh, that we are now embracing as well. So, what he brought about several years ago. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, it was an advanced look at the same science and same techniques that we've now. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Approached an automation point. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, a recap of Part 1, um, the question was, what mechanism in the atmosphere enables long over-the-horizon contacts at 47 GHz? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): This is just the thing that bugged us, because we had, first, a, what, 57 kilometer contact, then we had a 99, then we had 117. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And, you know, obviously we knew there was a bending taking place, and it had to be a duct of some sort, so just started asking questions of AI. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, first we took a look at the answer that it was giving back, and it was just for a single contact. Um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We knew that the duct was based on some factors that it, uh, extracted for us and began to show us, uh. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): you know, what it was finding, and those were with surface-based observations. And then we asked, well, let's put in the SKUT data as well, and we added additional contacts, uh, at 47 GHz, and a couple at 24. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): that were in the 200 kilometer and beyond range, which seemed, uh, you know, very exceptional. So, uh, this is all going into… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): a conversation with Claud, an AI tool, and then we said, build a predictive tool. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Using everything we know up till now, and also use real-time inputs. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): in order to make the prediction as good as possible. So what resulted was a surface-based model. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): With 7 scoring elements, with calibration from just 4 contacts. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Here is the ASOS, uh, typical station on the left, Automated Service station. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And some dots on the map to the right that shows, uh, the distribution. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, I won't go into great detail here, except the first couple here, but the 7 scoring factors that came out from, I would call it almost a neophyte model compared to what is going to come next. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But it was enlightening, nevertheless. And this is where we were a month ago. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): two factors, the absolute humidity is the largest weighting factor when considering propagation, but we find out from Graham's additional work. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): that the humidity impacts actually flip at 10 GHz. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): For a benefit and we'll get into a little more detail and then on wind, whether it's calm or it's a little more than calm, this turns out to have been overweighted by our original model and we have dropped it back to an 8% weighting factor. Of course, that gives us 10% extra to deal with, which I'm not going to try to explain here, but we'll. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Talk about it a little bit more. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Some of the other, uh… I would call them dimensions is sky radiative Cooling, time of day, T over TD depression, season of the year, uh, and pressure subsidence factors. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, our first map turned out to look like this. Uh, you could select an ASOS station. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And, um, it was writing on a composite score of the 7 factors, and it put colors up here. You could pick between 24 and 47 gigahertz. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): the colors would change, you could hover over them to see which station was reporting. It's just a little bit better than looking at a weather map, maybe, but, uh, it was calibrated to the contacts, and it was calibrated to. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, the factors with their weighting. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now then, we asked for skew t-plots to be added, and there are, um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): these factors here, which I'll touch on lightly, but we'll spend a little more time on this first one, which is min-DN over DH gradient. Uh, this requires knowing the temperature and dew point at every pressure level from surface to 200 HPA. Um, 200 HPA you might think of as the top of the troposphere. You'd have to have oxygen. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): If you were at that level. Inversion layers, uh, require seeing where the temperature increases with altitude, invisible from the surface observations alone. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The duct layers, or known as the M profile, require computing modified refractivity at each level and finding where it decreases with height. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The BL depth requires seeing where the potential temperature profile departs from the surface value. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And the lifted index and K-index require different pressures, temperature, and dew point simultaneously. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, on the MIN and DH, um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): jump down to the bullet points here. This is really like looking up from the bottom of a swimming pool. If you've ever been on the bottom of a swimming pool with your eyes open, you can see that the light is being refracted. And RF in the atmosphere does the very same thing, and that amount. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): is known, or that capability is known as the refractivity index. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The refractivity index of air isn't the same at every altitude. And when DN over DH exceeds minus 157 per kilometer, we have ducting. The more negative this number. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The stronger the duct. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The min DNDH is the minimum altitude that the tool is determining. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): the best DNDH occurs. And this, this plays into something important. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So we created some other apps, and I'll touch on these briefly, because they've largely been eclipsed now by what has come about now. But this, in the upper left was a millimeter wave link budget analyzer. You input two grids, nominal station values, such as, uh. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You know, transmit power, receive, uh, bandwidth, noise figure, antenna heights, antenna gains. You click this button to analyze path. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And you get, uh, the kind of the middle graph here, where you see what looks like a suspension bridge. Well, that's a straight line profile over a flat Earth projection. And, um, the ragged line up at the top is the actual protrusion of the Earth bulge, so it's nowhere near line of sight in this particular. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): graph. And then below the suspension bridge effect image, you see the percentage of link closure, which is pretty poor in this particular case. In the upper right, this is pretty hard to see, but there is a, um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): link, uh, we would call it a link margin value in dB. So, when that number's down below about 10 dB signal noise, you know, you're on the edge of being able to… now, some people would say different. They would say, well, I can work a CW signal down to 3 or 4 dB above the noise, but. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, for purposes of this kind of, uh, analysis, it's just not that accurate, so you would need, uh, more than 10… more than 3 dB, for sure. Um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The Skew-T plot have now been added, so the lower right-hand side shows an analysis of the Skew-T plot with an indication of where the ducts are and additional metrics. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Here was an additional app that we made. This was more about how did a contact occur? So, it's, uh, what it did was it, uh, accepted two grid points and the time of day and the date, and then it would go back and find the SKUT plots. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): the observations on the surface, and it would piece together an explanation as to how that contact occurred. Um, that was pretty interesting to me, uh, for about. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 30 minutes, and just, uh, looking at a couple of, uh, cool contacts we had. We made the app load with a contact that my partner and I made, uh, Paul, uh, K-I-5-E-M-N. We made this contact with Pat, W-5 in, uh. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The 10 GHz and up contest and he was in EchoMic 23 Alpha Oscar and we were in Echomic 02. This was a 350-something kilometer 10 gig contact and it was a good one for us. It gave us all those extra points and it was a typical early morning. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): um, 10GHz contact. Not that uncommon, but between two rovers, uh, really 3 rovers, uh, two on my side and one up on Pat's side, with antennas that are 4 feet off the ground, um, we'll take it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, these apps really were complementary, and the original seven scoring factors, even though they're surface weather model bobs, they answer the question, based on what's happening at the surface right now, how favorable. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Do conditions look? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That's about what we've always had, but this put it together in a graphical interface where we could quickly change where we wanted to look, and that kind of thing. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The derived propagation parameters from the addition of the skew T sounding, either the actual radios on balloon launch. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): which, by the way, is only twice a day, or the GFS model forecast, which we had also brought in. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Answers a different question. What is the actual vertical structure of the atmosphere, and is a duck physically present? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Of course, this information will get old, I mean, just minutes could make the difference, hours could make the difference, but it's trying to be predictive. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, all the apps then incorporated Skew-T from REOB, um, and we see this temperature and dew point profiles from real radio sound balloon launches at 0 and 1200 Zulu. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): and GFS forecast soundings from an API for a free service from OpenMedia.com. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It gave us the observed and FORECAST toggle that you can see in this panel heading that is in one of the apps, where you can click between observed and FORECAST, and in the FORECAST, you can select 6, 12, 24, and 48 hours. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): we were trying to move to a prediction, and I mentioned Mike Lavelle here again, because K6ML had this method with Wendy.com years ago. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, as I'm saying here, if I can get my finger to work, let's put it to use. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, what we did, and this is all, um, superseded somewhat now, but just a week ago. I mean, just a week ago. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): we were looking at these applications and the predictions. I was also looking at some of what Graham was developing. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And the statement here is, start observing the app predictions in real-time data versus actual conditions. So we were getting beacon reports, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): pretty consistently from different people. Um, Keith, WB5ZDP, was good to tell us about… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): uh, beacon signal levels. He was listening to a 10 and a 24 GHz beacon. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, sometimes the 10 was stronger than the 20, you know, was up. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): More than the 24 over nominal, and sometimes the 24 was up. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): over the 10. So, you know, it was kind of behaving like we were learning to understand it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then we start anticipating a truck roll, which I'll borrow from Mike Lavelle. It's a great description, because it takes planning. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Heck, I have to get my wife out here to help me load some stuff. I'm getting so weak, and it's so heavy. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But what triggers are we watching for? Well, first of all, all of us know that if the weather changes and we get good conditions and the weather stays stable. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That's probably gonna bode well for us. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, I started looking last weekend, uh, for… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): What would happen when that front came through, which wiped out our microwave activity day? Eric Haskell AG5XV: Nope. Eric Haskell AG5XV: Okay. There you go. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Behind the front. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): There was a prediction for Monday. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And set that front roll through Saturday into Sunday. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And behind that front, there was some good-looking predictions in the tools that we have. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And they were not only good for Monday, they were good for Tuesday. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): In fact, they were so good, it was hard to believe. I was beginning to wonder. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But the conditions did turn favorable, and it was time to start talking to some people and seeing who was going to be available. Now, I still work. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): May 29th is my last day. I'm 74 years old, and I'm ready to get out of there. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Been a long time. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And, um, I still work, so Monday was one of the really busy days, and just not available to me, but Tuesday morning, I could squeeze in a few hours of radio time, so I got ahold of some people. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And here's what we got accomplished, and we'll cover a little about how the tools helped us here. You're probably not going to be able to read these grids, but first, Steve, K5MNZ, he just wanted to check out his. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): LNA that he had put on his 10-gig rig, and he'd been jonesing for a few weeks to. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): get out there and try it, and then we got rained out on Saturday, so he was ready to jump out there. Uh, he had found a high spot in a pasture. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): on his ranch, uh, where the ground sloped away a little bit better than, like, from his driveway. And so, we said, okay, uh, I'll set up an, uh, AM-12. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, it's about a 100-kilometer path. Uh, we set up to go on the air right at sunup, so… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): before sunlight really we were on the air, the signals were extremely strong, and you would kind of expect that at 100 km but it was a good checkout, um, and I know Steve really appreciated it. And so then I got back in the truck and drove down to Hillsboro, which was not too far away, and I had got ahold of. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Keith, who needed another grid on 24 GHz, and this is a high spot that I have, but if you look at the path profile on the right-hand side, it's nowhere near line of sight. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yet we had good, strong signals, uh, at 129 clicks. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I want to compare, uh, from our original tools, some numbers right here, because the story is in here. And you will see, uh, on the top. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): data panel that, um, this is 7am on Tuesday. We had a good number on the D and DH gradient, but we had excellent numbers in all the other categories, and it indicated that a duck was right on the ground, basically. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, within 17 meters of the ground. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I won't go into all of these details, uh, but there is explanation. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, further on. Then, looking this morning at this same path. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, the only number that looks good is the top number, which is the D and DH. However, if you look at this closer, you realize that that duct that it's talking about. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): is 3 miles high, so there's no coupling possibility. None at all. Now, if you were on one of those mountains out where. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): the California guys live, you might have some chance at it, but you're not gonna launch into a 3-mile-high duct from the ground. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You can see the duct on the left side. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Compared to this low duck in the top panel. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): This is a slide from last month's presentation. I wanted to repeat it in here, both from a sanity check for me, uh, but also for you, because where we were at then was. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We had 4 data points in one geographic corridor, in one climate regime. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That would be 500 mile radius of Dallas. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I said in this presentation last time, 2 or 3 years of community submissions across different geographies and seasons. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): could give us enough data to start answering questions that nobody in the amateur microwave world has good answers to yet. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): things like what the minimum atmospheric signature is that can support a 47 GHz duct contact, or whether there's a seasonal pattern to boundary layer inversion contacts outside of Texas, or how the required drugs. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): duct strength scales with path length. This would be novel empirical work. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, to be sure, there were some people that could figure this out, but as far as, uh, sharing it on a broader basis, this is where we found ourselves headed. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So I'm going to call this next section a transformation in analysis. Graham McIntire shifts the project into high gear. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): First of all, he expands the dataset, and uh… Graham, if I get this wrong, I think the first algorithm we called ALGO2 versus the original one that we had. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, for the original apps, uh, sweeps in about 58,000 contest QSOs. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, which is 6 years of contacts, and these we cross-referenced with actual weather conditions at the time of the contact. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): This became the largest empirical millimeter wave propagation dataset assembled for amateur radio. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That did not take an hour. That took days. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I think at one point, um, Graham told me he had to change servers. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That might have been when you were importing HRRR data, but he had to, uh… he was still hitting thresholds on the data rights to the so-called disk. It's solid state nowadays, but… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): ALGO 3 add in 18,000… 18,500 commercial link measurements, which are from the WISP backhaul links at 11, 24, and 68 GHz. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): This is continuous 24-7 signal monitoring with fixed paths, known geometry, and real-time calibration data. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Graham also identified additional weather data sources and created interfaces to them. Among them are the upper air soundings. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): HRRR model data, i.e. MRE gridded hourly weather. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Shuttle SRTM terrain elevation data. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): the commercial link validation, and the solar indices. Anything you want to add here, Graham? Graham McIntire: Yeah, just a couple things. Um, yeah, as you mentioned about things changing rapidly, now there's 10 different criteria instead of 7. Graham McIntire: that just changed within the last hour, based on new backfill data. We're also pulling ERA5 data now. Graham McIntire: Because HR only goes back to 2014, so any contacts that we had before that date. Graham McIntire: Uh, we have to get the data from that. Graham McIntire: Um, and with the commercial link data, uh, it's valuable. Graham McIntire: But in the opposite way that most people think, since all of my links are point-to-point, you know, I need the maximum signal strength, maximum modulation. Graham McIntire: When ducting happens, it ends up, uh… Graham McIntire: causing multipath with the links, and it drops the signal levels. So, we're actually looking for drops on my commercial links. Graham McIntire: Mean better propagation for amateur radio. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That's interesting. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now let's just talk about some of the new applications that have been spun off from, um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): two things, I would say. First is, uh, Graham's ability as a developer. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, to, uh, use modern tooling. And I'm not talking about AI. AI is definitely underneath. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But, uh, just modern programming tooling, which is a whole world unto itself. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I'm familiar with some of it, but not to the extent that Graham is in his area, and he has been able to leverage these tools to quickly develop applications that leverage the data. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, incorporating the live scoring data and propagation grid scores. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We have a map that is, uh, covers the continental U.S. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): At .125 degree resolution. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The update cadence of the data is stated here. Hourly HRRR based by propagation grid worker. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): and 10-minute ASOS adjustments by the ASOS adjustment worker. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): per grid point. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The composites store 0 through 100 with 9 individual factor scores. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): is calculated. The bands that are scored are 902. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, through 241 GHz. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The retention is the two most recent valid times kept older data is pruned automatically. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, usually live demos don't go well, but I'm gonna try to take you through. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The web pages now that illustrate these various functions. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): which these are all different from our original apps, because they really eclipse those apps, but we will leave them up for a little while. So let me see if I can do this without wrecking us. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Alright, this is the first one, you should be seeing the path calculator, so you can see all of these items across the top here, uh, which… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): all have a page underneath them. This first one is the path calculator, uh, which is similar to one of our apps, only now it's sitting on a whole lot of data. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I have run this earlier today, so I'm gonna put this grid in. This is the grid, uh, that I go to that's about, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 2 miles from my house. I do have to flip over the interstate, so it takes me about 10 minutes to get there in traffic. But, um, my grid here is EM12IL74DR, and I noticed all you have to do is put a call sign in here. I'm not sure how Graham's doing that. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But… he's doing it. Graham McIntire: It does a QRZ lookup, and then geocodes the address that's in there. Graham McIntire: So, if we have a deal box or something, it's gonna be wildly off. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I got you, okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Now I got a little more power on 10GHz, so I'm just gonna run this for 10GHz. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): My inten- uh, well, let's say that… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): My antenna is, uh, 5 feet high, and Al's is 60. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I'll put those parameters in there. My transmit gain on the antenna is probably 33 dBi. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And Al's probably got that on… at least on his… oops… on his receive antenna. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Let's calculate the path, clicking the Calculate Path button. And here it gives us a little map. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We can zoom in a little on that. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Shows us the, uh, topo path in the frontal zone on the bottom side there. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Says it's 94.2 kilometers. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, it's given us a pretty good score. This is a little light, but it says 69 over 100. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And here's the link budget. So, uh, it calculates total path loss at 231.3 dB, and it's given us all this, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Power budget information here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And it's saying your margin's about 11 dB. So it's probably a little stingy, but maybe not. Maybe these conditions are not all like, oh, well, it's raining. So that's one problem. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, not that that stops us on 10 GHz, but it might stop me from getting out of my truck. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Humidity's 90… is getting a score of 95. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, you know, there's some yellows here that are, you know, indicating downgrades. And so, there you go. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That's the path calculator. Now let's just raise this to 24GHz. Let's just say I could make all that much power. Graham McIntire: It also has… Graham McIntire: Sorry, at the bottom, it also has… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And let's see how it changes. Graham McIntire: The prediction over time, based on the data we have right now? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It's doing what? Graham McIntire: Uh, at the very bottom of the page, it shows that same contact, whether it's going to improve or. Graham McIntire: Decrease over the next… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. These little, uh, vertical blocks. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Have, oh, you can hover over it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So at 0300 UTC, well, we won't be up, I won't get Al up at that time. That's 45. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 44. Okay, so, but we switched this to 24, and automatically looks like we got a penalty of 20 dB, at least. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, if we went back and looked at this free space loss and gaseous, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): losses. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then, of course, it's even calculating diffraction loss, which would be terrain. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, you know, you can get a quick look at how this, how this is gonna work or not work. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Next, I want to go to the map. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I like to spin this up to about 24 GHz. There's 24. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And automatically, you see the decay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): and conditions. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So we're down in the pores. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): and marginals. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And this is McKinney up here. This is Greenville, one of our haunts on 47. David - KG5EIU TX: So, is this, is this saying that even right now. David - KG5EIU TX: At 24 GHz, even if you had line of sight, it'd be poor, or is this for the ducting? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, this would not, uh, cover, like, a line of sight. Uh, that would be on the page I was previously on, where… David - KG5EIU TX: Okay. Graham McIntire: Notice. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay, that's what I thought, just making sure. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, well, we would put in two, you know, point A and point B, and it would detect that it's line of sight. It's gonna give you a bunch of thumbs up. David - KG5EIU TX: But this, but this map chart right here with what you're showing is not line of sight. David - KG5EIU TX: With the colors. Like, right now, it looks like the poor 33 to 49. David - KG5EIU TX: Right? Graham McIntire: Yes, this… this map completely ignores line of sight. It's only looking at… David - KG5EIU TX: No matter what point you were… David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. Anything in that… anything in this range, if you… Graham McIntire: propagation. David - KG5EIU TX: weren't… didn't have line of sight, there's no ducting really available, right? Is that… Graham McIntire: Right, because line of sight's the… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That's right. David - KG5EIU TX: Making sure. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But if we flip this back to 10 GHz… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The picture will get better. David - KG5EIU TX: So, this is saying… David - KG5EIU TX: If you didn't have line of sight. David - KG5EIU TX: you might still be able to make a 10 GHz connection, is that… is that right? Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yes. Graham McIntire: You can also click on any spot on the map, and it'll show you the, um, the weighted propagation. Graham McIntire: For it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. When I do that, I want to be on 24. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So let's look and find… so there's a… kind of a corridor right here, there's actually a little green right here, but if we click over here by Canton. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): See, we get a 50 over 100. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But if we click here… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): near where Keith lives. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Air Levonne, 43 over 100. Mike K6ML: So, is this color coding showing… Mike K6ML: Uh, propagation from a particular point to each of these color-coded points. Mike K6ML: Or is it just the loss over that region? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I believe it's right over that region. It's aggregating all of the vertical atmosphere data. Graham McIntire: Yeah, so what it's doing is each of those little blocks that you see is one… Graham McIntire: vertical slice of the atmosphere that we get from HRR data. Um… Graham McIntire: So, it's taking each one of those vertical slices and applying our algorithm to it based on the weather conditions right now in that slice. Graham McIntire: how well do we think propagation is going to work? And that's what the plus down at the bottom does as well. Mike K6ML: Okay. Graham McIntire: HRR is an aggregated weather. Graham McIntire: Uh, that takes into account all sorts of things, and NOAA puts out the model every hour that updates. Graham McIntire: Uh, current plus 12 hours. So you can click, you know, plus 12 and see, okay, with the current knowledge we have right now. Graham McIntire: This is what it'll look… what the same thing will look like in 12 hours. Mike K6ML: But this is like passing through that cell, there's a certain loss, but wouldn't that have to be at a certain altitude also? Graham McIntire: Uh, that's what the antenna height on the right is. So, when you click on a spot. Mike K6ML: Well… Graham McIntire: Um, it's still a little too splotchy than it should be, because it's actually taking into account SRTM elevation data. Graham McIntire: Um, and the… Graham McIntire: you know, everything is, like Jim said, everything is changing, like, hourly at this point, so it doesn't take into account, like. Mike K6ML: Right, but… Graham McIntire: You know, the… the elevation of somebody receiving it, or something like that. Graham McIntire: There is a tool that's very, very early for planning rover missions that will do things like that. Graham McIntire: Uh, but right now, it doesn't. Mike K6ML: Okay, so these are basically individual conditions at individual points. Mike K6ML: at the height of the antenna. So, essentially. Mike K6ML: One of the two endpoints on the contact. Graham McIntire: Correct. Yeah, it's… it's… Mike K6ML: Uh, you haven't really got to the point where you're saying, I can pick two points, and. Mike K6ML: Figure the elevation profile along… Mike K6ML: And figure the loss of each of those segments. Graham McIntire: Well, that's what the path, uh, that Jim showed up a little while ago does. Mike K6ML: So, would you have… Graham McIntire: Yes. Mike K6ML: That's based on the actual… Graham McIntire: And then the… the rover planer is the ultimate… it's not up right now, it's… it's very broken. Um, but it's the ultimate… if I'm gonna go plan a Saturday or something to go out and make contacts. Graham McIntire: you'll be able to select, uh, you know, say I want… I want to work these stations, and they're gonna stay at home, and I'm gonna rove. Graham McIntire: It'll actually plot out a map showing these are the ideal places for you to go. Graham McIntire: To work all of the people that are going to be stationary. Mike K6ML: Okay, so essentially you get a plot like this for each of those stations, saying. Mike K6ML: Uh, all the other places on the map, how good the signal would be. Graham McIntire: Right. Graham McIntire: Yeah, this… this map is just a… a basic… if I'm sitting here with an antenna at whatever height. Graham McIntire: What is the propagation gonna look like? Graham McIntire: using the algorithm that we've determined. Yeah. Mike K6ML: Yeah, where you're at. David - KG5EIU TX: Would it be, uh, possible, or maybe, uh, to have in the path calculator part, uh. David - KG5EIU TX: Maybe the, like, a pick list for the beacons? Graham McIntire: Yes, that's… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, we're gonna get to that. Graham McIntire: All of these are planned as well, um, for both automated and manual, um. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay, okay. Graham McIntire: beacon, uh, report collection. Because that's the one critical thing… sorry if I'm stealing your thunder, Jim. The one critical thing we need to make things much better is just more data. Graham McIntire: we can get all of the weather data we have right now, it's amazing, but we still need, okay, I heard this beacon at exactly this time and day, and its signal level was X. David - KG5EIU TX: Right. Graham McIntire: We need that throughout the year. Graham McIntire: Um, I had tried training a machine learning model based on the data we have now. Graham McIntire: And it didn't work very well, because the vast majority, probably 90% of the contacts we have. Graham McIntire: were during the contests. So it weighs very, very heavily on those months, and it says, oh, you're in April now. Graham McIntire: there's no contacts that are confirmed, or fewer contacts that are confirmed, so I'm going to rate it really poorly. David - KG5EIU TX: Bye. David - KG5EIU TX: Got it. Graham McIntire: So we just need more data from everybody. David - KG5EIU TX: Are the… do the beacons report back into, like, is there, like, an RBN? Bob N5BRG: Isn't there… isn't there a… David - KG5EIU TX: Part to the beacons or not, I'm not even sure. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay. Bob N5BRG: So, what about data that's been done from contract studies? Bob N5BRG: like, I'm familiar with one study, it was atmospheric data from… the study was by the Air Force, it was quite a few years ago. Bob N5BRG: But I think there are other microwave studies that have been done for propagation. Is that… have you got… looked at that data and potentially using any kind of data of that type? Graham McIntire: It probably is, because we… we're pulling… I forget the name now, the… Bob N5BRG: So AI has found it, you think, in pulling it in. Graham McIntire: Well, it's the… the RF propagation, um… Graham McIntire: I'll just call it a white paper. Um, but it's… it's taken that into account. Oh, ITURP.453-14. Graham McIntire: So it's taken all of that into account as well. Bob N5BRG: Yeah. Graham McIntire: Uh, and if you want to read through. Graham McIntire: everything. I'll paste the link to the… Graham McIntire: The current, uh, plain text version of the algorithm. Bob N5BRG: Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Great questions and discussion. I flipped this up to 47 giga. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, here's, I've got to turn my volume down. I have to turn it up to hear you guys turn it down, because it sounds like I'm shouting in it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But, uh, look here at 47GHz, and there's… actually looks better than 24, and, you know, that's not uncommon that there'd be… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, some distance from the. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): the attenuation line, but as I come in here… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Brian to come in here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh, there's Allen, Texas. This may be as far in as I can come. Yeah, I think it is. So, I was looking back here to the west. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It looks like, uh, there is a possibility that you could hear a beacon at Denton if it was on top of a woman's dorm. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): at 47 gigahertz. Now, there's no ERPs in here, or, you know, other data, but if I could see a bunch of grain between Denton and Allen, then I would expect if I call Al, he's listening to the 47 beacon successfully. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So it's interesting that we have some good conditions on 47GHz, and some not so good, at the same time that we have differences at 24. There's just a lot of empirical testing, uh, sounds like we need to do. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, while I'm here, I'm gonna come over, because this is something that Graham added, cause… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): He told me, hey, we have the data, why don't we just have a weather map? So, if I click on this… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): to the right, you can get to this a couple different ways, but if I click on Weather Map. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And, Graham, you may have to step us through this, but I… temperature, I understand, surface temperature. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And it correlates somewhere between 15 and 30 degrees centigrade. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then there's… these others. Graham McIntire: Yeah, most of them, um… essentially, this whole project has taught me that. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Graham McIntire: Um, I need to learn more meteorology, because we're… we're basically doing what meteorologists do. Graham McIntire: And then try and predict things that, you know, ducks in the atmosphere may only be a meter high. Graham McIntire: We don't know how thick they are, and then if a slight breeze comes in, it could knock the top off of one. Graham McIntire: Um, the… most of them don't matter too much. Uh, PWAT has to do about the… Graham McIntire: The total moisture content of the atmosphere, and refractivity is the… Graham McIntire: Um, from the NOAA satellites, uh, how… Graham McIntire: Reflective the ground is compared to… Graham McIntire: Uh, past times. So, typically. Graham McIntire: you know, dense clouds, dense humidity in the atmosphere. It just started raining here now, so it's probably gonna get more dense soon. Graham McIntire: Uh, but they're… this is essentially the raw HRR information that we get. Graham McIntire: Uh, and then the next row of things is all at different altitudes. Graham McIntire: So, you can also skip to… like, you can go to ducting if you want, uh, and that's where the HRR data. Graham McIntire: uh, detects that there are ducts. Uh, it's very, very coarse, uh, it's only doing… Graham McIntire: 250 meter vertical slices of the atmosphere, uh, so it has to be a very big duct, very stable for it to see it whatsoever. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Are we getting data up here to the, like, would cover the Great Lakes? Graham McIntire: Yes. Yeah, it covers, uh, it's a latitude, uh, but it covers all. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, here's some. Graham McIntire: All of the continental U.S. Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yep. Graham McIntire: But like I said, this… this ducting is only… hey, this is a really, really, really big duct. Graham McIntire: But conversely, that may not be ideal, because it may not be the right size to be able to refract. Graham McIntire: say, 10 GHz waves. It could be way too big. We don't know. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, very good. Looks like they got a little bit going on, as you might expect in the Gulf. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): No joy for you, uh, Ben. It's not going that high. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Alright, I'm getting bogged down here, so let me keep moving. Um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Beacons. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, so we have input some beacons here. Um, this is… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): a facility or feature. Let me go to Submit Beacon to just show you what the… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Input looks like. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I think that Graham built this overnight, because it looks like. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): There's some new stuff here. So you put in a frequency, a call for the beacon. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The grid. You can get real granular here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): or the lat-long. But if you put in the grid, it will calculate the lat-long, and vice versa. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And you give the EIRP in milliwatt. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The height above ground for the antenna. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And whether or not, um, there's a… there's a bearing, or for a directional array. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): On the beacon, or the word omni. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then if there is a… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): directional array… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): you put the beam width here, and I assume this is the 3 dB beam width? Graham McIntire: Yes, yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, we haven't even talked about this, although I assumed it was the 3 dB bandwidth, and… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I input a couple of beacons with that understanding, or really mine. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So then there are these modes. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): To select… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then whether or not it's on the air, and some additional notes. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, these are the ones that we have input. Mike K6ML: Just a comment on the modes, uh, some beacons support more than one mode. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yes. Mike K6ML: So, I don't know if you'll be able to do that. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Mike K6ML: Put in 2 or 3 modes, or… Graham McIntire: I can change it so we can do that. There's also a notes section, uh, so you can put in, you know, this… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Graham McIntire: And then this… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, so the note on mine right now says, modulates CW carrier and Q65C60, but I chose the Q65C60 as the mode, but when you sweeten it up, then. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I'll, uh, add the other, or change the other, or you can help me change the other. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We'll see, I do have editability. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, let's just look at Greg's beacon right here, uh, AA5C, ECOMI 13, Sierra Fox. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 500 milliwatts, 75 feet above the ground. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then if we click down here where it says show estimated Current Coverage. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It shows a sweet spot right in here, and we can hover. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, we can zoom in and look… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): There looks like it's reaching, uh, the Sulphur River on the… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Northside, or Red River, it's called there. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, getting down to Dallas. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Out maybe to… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Commerce and Sulphur Springs. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But this is in the good. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Green. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, there's a… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Calculation that's scoring and estimating the. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Signal strength. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then, of course, right around the beacon. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Like at Le Von. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): we could get a signal report from Keith. Looks like it's minus 99 dB. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, so that's probably rocking your S meter pretty good. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Here's the list we have so far. We have KM0T. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Iowa. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We have a few of the beacons that are on the women's dormitory. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): At 280 in Denton. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So that's beacons. Now let's look here if we haven't lost you, so this is the contact map. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I assume that this is everything that's in our database. Is that a fair statement? Graham McIntire: Yes. It's… it pulls live, so if you add a new contact, it'll show up immediately. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Yeah, I've seen that. So let's just zoom in on Winnipeg here, and there will be an observation here, Barry, and that is that. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): If the contacts were logged in such a way that they only use 6-digit grid versus a 10-digit grid. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It's gonna have a more precise location. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, then you will see right here. So as you see, there's 2. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I'm pretty sure this is you in all cases. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But I see a high frequency one right here, so let's just click on that. Barry VE4MA: No, we… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): If we can. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It takes a knack to get the finger here. Pat W5VY: Yes. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, 75 gigahertz, single sideband, 37 kilometers. Pat W5VY: Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): VE4 to VE4 M8 to SA. Pat W5VY: The ones that want to come back. Pat W5VY: But what's… there are… I guess there are no… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, by clicking View Details, you can see… Pat W5VY: Okay, don't worry. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The detail of this contact. Pat W5VY: Hard… hard to do. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, I'm gonna guess that this is a resolution issue again, where… Pat W5VY: Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Your partner may have been on top of this, Pete, but because of the 4-digit grid, or 6-digit grid, it's centered that, and it's placed it over here. Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Barry VE4MA: Yeah, they were on top of a 22-story building. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, that wouldn't… this is SRTM data, so this would be the ground. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Anyway, you see a lot of information here that was, uh, the real-time data at the time. Pat W5VY: Okay. Pat W5VY: And it's gonna have a puppy dog. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): There's an HRR model profile here. Pat W5VY: Okay. Mike K6ML: So, if we look at a contact that we made, and we notice that the data could be improved, is there a way to edit the database, uh, looking at this page? Mike K6ML: To correct things? Graham McIntire: Yes and no. Right now, uh, there is user registration, but right now only Jim and I have admin. Graham McIntire: Um, there's that flag is invalid, but that's more right now for… Graham McIntire: Like, this is just blatantly wrong, you know, 10,000 kilometer link or something. Graham McIntire: Um… I'll make a note to add that, though. Mike K6ML: Yeah, because then you can basically crowdsource the removing of the poison data, you know, making it, uh, pure. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): There you go. Yep. Graham McIntire: Yeah, exactly, and things like, oh, I know I was on top of this 22-story building, and not on the ground next to it. Mike K6ML: Yeah, well that you would just change your antenna height to say… Mike K6ML: About 220 feet or whatever. Graham McIntire: Right. Yeah, and that's one of the biggest problems, is just 6-digit grids. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Good one. Graham McIntire: Um, I just had to delete 800-something contacts, because they had the same source and destination grid. Graham McIntire: So, it looks like they're standing right next to each other. Mike K6ML: Yeah, but they're probably not too interesting in training the database anyhow, because if they were in the same grid. Graham McIntire: Exactly. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, this probably looks familiar to Tony, although, uh, it'd give you a headache if you look at it very long. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): These are Lake Erie… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Point-to-point contacts in the contest, probably more than anything. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And you can dig right down into it and find yourself. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, just takes a little time. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But this is what is sitting in our database. Uh, Mike, I know that the world record contact is in here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I can't remember if it was precisely on the mountaintops, but I think one side is. Mike K6ML: Yeah, I was gonna get back to you on that. I noticed the height profile. Mike K6ML: Seems to be like a flat Earth, not a curved Earth, because… Mike K6ML: Uh, the path was nearly obstructed. Mike K6ML: You can probably click on it, and I can just illustrate it right now, but… Mike K6ML: Because there's only one 122 contact in there, I think. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um… Mike K6ML: You can find it by the color. Mike K6ML: Uh, move up across the bay, or to the right of the bay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, there, there's a K6ML to KB6BA and N9JIM. Mike K6ML: That's it. That's the one, yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yep. Mike K6ML: So, when I look at this on, hey, what's Earth, uh… Mike K6ML: The curved earth profile shows that spike in the middle, nearly intersecting the path. Mike K6ML: so I don't know whether this was done as a flat Earth, and it doesn't have the Earth's curvature included, or… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Mike K6ML: It's because the endpoints are wrong. The endpoints are both elevated, so that looks approximately right. Mike K6ML: And it's 10-digit grids, so… not sure what's wrong, but… Graham McIntire: The display itself isn't showing that correctly. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yes. Graham McIntire: Uh, the actual algorithm and scoring does take into account not only the curvature of the Earth, but also the. Graham McIntire: The steroid bulge, the fear of his. Mike K6ML: Good, okay, so it's just the illustration here that's room. Mike K6ML: Great. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Graham, how hard would it be to toggle this view to a curved Earth view back and forth? Graham McIntire: Uh, that's what I was just making a new issue for. I've created a few since this meeting started. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, yeah. Uh, we have a Kanban board with… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You know, it looks like a professional project. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Alright, um, the last thing is just to look at this database, because I want to illustrate one, um, we'll pick a piece of poison, okay? And that is, I saw a contact that was… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): wrong, and it's between these two operators. Mrs. Pat. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And Paul Perryman. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And… if you look at this contact right here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It's a… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Contest contact… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Where Pat was at Millwood Lake. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And that's not EchoNancy 33. It's this… here's the reciprocal contact logged by Pat. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Where he got it right, EM33AQ. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So this one needs correction, because it shows a 1264. Pat W5VY: No. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): kilometer contact. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And Pat wasn't up there in wherever that is. Barry VE4MA: Minnesota. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Iowa. Barry VE4MA: Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, bad data does exist, and we need that ability to correct that, or flag it as invalid. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And get it corrected. So… you can submit a contact here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Here's the submit page. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You can also do this by way of uploading a CSV file. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Which is the way that I've done it when I got, um, inputs from different folks. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Unless I just got a single contact, and then I just use this page. Mike K6ML: I'll make a suggestion for a way to sort of review the contacts. Mike K6ML: Uh, if you had the option to say on the contact map. Mike K6ML: Show all contacts involving K6ML. Mike K6ML: Then I could, at my leisure, go in and… Mike K6ML: improve the data on each of those contacts based on whatever I know, like the exact time of day, or… Mike K6ML: Uh, antenna height, stuff like that. Mike K6ML: Uh… Mike K6ML: And so, this along the lines of my earlier comment about crowdsourcing the, uh… Mike K6ML: Purifying of the data. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, a filter on the map. Mike K6ML: To say, just show me somebody, you know, a certain station's contacts, and then that station could go in. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): By… a call sign. Mike K6ML: And, you know, if you added this edit mode. Mike K6ML: You know, if they were a member of the website or whatever, they could then validate all their contacts. Mike K6ML: You know, probably take them a while, but they wanted to. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Good suggestion. Graham McIntire: Yeah, the map is a good suggestion. Right now, you can also search, like Jim was doing just a minute ago. Graham McIntire: On the raw context page. Mike K6ML: Oh, search is fine, too, yeah. Mike K6ML: But it… Graham McIntire: Yeah, you can search for both sides of the contact if you need to search for a specific one or something. G Paul Perryman: I'm sorry I'm late, but how… I fat-figured that, obviously, so what in the process would have caught that? Because that's clearly an error on my part. Graham McIntire: Uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, if we… why would we catch that? Graham McIntire: It's all user-submitted data, so if somebody says they did this contact, we just have to kind of trust that it's right. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, and we actually have a user that has a contact over 1,000 kilometers that's legitimate. Mike K6ML: Yeah, if you have… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I just happened to find that one, Paul, because… G Paul Perryman: Yeah, because it's clearly wrong… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It was on the first page, the first time I looked at the data. Mike K6ML: This is a broken… G Paul Perryman: And I was curious where that data even came from, because I don't ever remember submitting anything like that to anybody. Mike K6ML: Yeah. Graham McIntire: Uh, a lot… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Turned in a contest log. Mike K6ML: It's probably… it's probably a busted context log. You probably have a log check report on that contact, because one of the grids is wrong. G Paul Perryman: And this is from the last contact, right? Last contact? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 24, probably. Graham McIntire: Uh, all of them. G Paul Perryman: All of them. Graham McIntire: Since 2019. G Paul Perryman: So, if… because I haven't been on any of these bands within the last couple years, so… G Paul Perryman: it makes me want to go back and find that contact, and see what the real genesis of it is, but if it… I put it in as a contest log entry, and it's that far out of whack. G Paul Perryman: I would have seen that when I was calculating my score and stuff, and it would have stuck out like a sore throat. So somewhere, either in the translation from the big database, or somewhere along the way, there's a foul ball. G Paul Perryman: And I want to make sure, if it was me and Fatfingered, I'll own it. But if not, if it is. G Paul Perryman: that I need a corrective thing in my own process, right? If I look at my contacts and go, hey, that's wrong. I could have seen that a mile away. Graham McIntire: Yeah, this is exactly what we got from the ARRL, so whatever's in their database is exactly what went into ours. Mike K6ML: Yeah, if you… if you did a log check report on that year's contest, you probably find the ARRL docs that contact. Pat W5VY: Uh… Mike K6ML: Because it was an error. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Very possibly. G Paul Perryman: Okay. Well, I've only been in, like, 2 contests, so it shouldn't be too hard to find where this thing came from. Pat W5VY: Well, Paul… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We have the date, Paul, it's in the, it's in 24. G Paul Perryman: Yeah. Pat W5VY: Look… Pat W5VY: Right. It's, um… Pat W5VY: You've got EN30… EN23AQ, it should be Echo Mike. G Paul Perryman: Yeah, I… I see the problem. Pat W5VY: Yeah. G Paul Perryman: Yeah, I see the problem. Clearly, Pat, I was foul balled, but I, I, you know, I would have thought I'd seen it when I put it in, because it would have had a great big score or something, right? Pat W5VY: Yeah. Pat W5VY: Yeah, probably would have been. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, you need to tighten up, buddy. G Paul Perryman: Oh yeah, that's it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Nice try. G Paul Perryman: Get dragged together. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Alright, we gotta get back to this. We're having too much fun. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, so I wanted to kind of come to a close with this one. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, there's a quote from a guy named George Box. Some of you may have heard this, but… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): All models are wrong, some are useful. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I just need to… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): remind us that there are limitations, uh, because they are simplifications of reality. I think these are pretty close. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But they can't capture every detail or nuance of the systems they represent. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The usefulness of a model should be judged by its ability to provide insights and guide decision-making. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Rather than the absolute accuracy. And I think this is where we will go for the next years. And I hope by the time we get through this… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Spring-summer slash late summer, fall period, we will have enough empirical. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Experience. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): To be able to say that, you know, to what extent we can trust this, and to what value it has become. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I know one thing. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We've got to be careful of our thinking of saying… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We're only gonna go out on microwave activity days. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Because we ran an analysis on the last couple of years on how many times we would have had good conditions on 47 GHz. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Of course, they run in scales, so it's, like, average to good to great to excellent. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But we had… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 5 or 6 that we missed, completely, because they were not on mad days. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Or other days that I could get off work. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, I think this is gonna have to help us change our thinking. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Sure, we still want to go on the microwave activity days and get out there, but the expectations should be… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): lowered or heightened according to what we're seeing in the predictions. And then you don't get all disappointed because you drove 50 miles or 100 miles or 150 miles. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And the band was flat. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Whereas, if it looks good on Wednesday, and you can make it happen, then… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That might become our operating mode in the future. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Sure will be mine. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We need to prove by testing. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And that's all I've got on that. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Other discussion or questions? Thank you for the discussion so far. Bob N5BRG: I have a couple of comments. First of all, on the modeling thing, I think models are… truly can be good, and. Bob N5BRG: Over time, they get better and better. Just look at the weather forecasting over the years, it's gotten better and better. Bob N5BRG: And so this… the work you guys are doing on this will make it better. Bob N5BRG: And the other thing is that on the, uh, refractive index thing, uh, you know, if you… if you equate this to, like, fiber optics, there's a step index fiber where light bounces off. Bob N5BRG: The true change in index of refraction of the materials. Bob N5BRG: And follows its path down the fiber, and then there's a graded index, which it means it's bent gradually as it. Bob N5BRG: Moves away from the center of the fiber. Bob N5BRG: And I think you can have the same scenario in a dot. Bob N5BRG: And in the fiber, if you have a step index, then you can have signals arriving at the end at different times, because they can follow many different paths. Bob N5BRG: And less so if you have graded index, so it makes it better for higher frequency. Bob N5BRG: So if we have graded index type ducking, then I think that could be better. So it's just a non-linear. Bob N5BRG: Index of refraction, or a differential type refraction as it moves through the atmosphere, I believe. Bob N5BRG: That's just my thought, anyway. Graham McIntire: Right, and that's… that's exactly what it's just starting to do with more detail. Graham McIntire: about the… you know, like, right now we're basically taking a crashed airplane and trying to figure out why it crashed. We know the conditions are like this. What went into making it? Graham McIntire: Like this. So, the first step is identifying those ducks, and then, like you said. Graham McIntire: It's only going to be refractive for a certain… a certain frequency. Graham McIntire: So that's why, uh, some things like typically 10 and 24 gig. Graham McIntire: are inverse with each other, so if it's a really good 10 gig day, it's gonna be a bad 24 gig day. Graham McIntire: But there could be multiple ducks, there could be all sorts of things, we don't know. That's… we're just… Graham McIntire: Right now, we're trying to collect as much data as we possibly can to kind of gradually improve the model, so it gets a little better every time. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Thank you for that, Bob. David - KG5EIU TX: Would, uh, like, WSJTX data be worthwhile? David - KG5EIU TX: If you had… if you had, uh, two stations that… David - KG5EIU TX: Could transmit, or beacons that could report back on what they actually are getting. Graham McIntire: Uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yes. Graham McIntire: Yeah, they definitely could. Um, what I'm working on right now, it's very early, um. Graham McIntire: But, like, the… the beacons on TWU are non-line of sight to me. Graham McIntire: Um, so I'm working on… I still have to put in connectors on the coax that's sitting outside in the ring now. Um… Graham McIntire: I'm gonna put up a received dish to an SDR, and basically take, you know, one minute. Graham McIntire: to 5-minute measurements of the signal level. The raw signal doesn't matter, it's just how it varies based on the weather data. David - KG5EIU TX: Alright. Graham McIntire: So essentially, the plan is to build out a bunch of those, and say. David - KG5EIU TX: Right. Graham McIntire: You know, hey, if you want to participate. Graham McIntire: Listen to whatever beacon, that's why the beacon page came about. So then we'll be able to see, okay, these are the reports that this beacon is getting. Graham McIntire: and then from that, go back and train our model. So none of what's on the site right now is training the model. That happens offline, because it's just way too intense. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. Graham McIntire: It's just data collecting, and then every time there's an update to our propagation model. Graham McIntire: that gets reflected back in the code. So, like, that's changed… Graham McIntire: twice, I think, since the meeting started, because I've been working on it. David - KG5EIU TX: kind of like a whisper… like a… like a whisper-type setup, right? Where I could set up… I could set my dish up in the backyard and hook it up to the computer, and… Graham McIntire: Exactly. I can tweet. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. David - KG5EIU TX: Let it run for an hour or two, and you would have that data. Graham McIntire: Right, because we need to see what happens during various precipitation types, what happens if it's foggy outside, what happens when our front comes through, like, all the different variables. We have to account for all of those. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We're looking for really permanent, um, monitoring, David, where. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We set up a receiving system that is up 24-7. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And it will have a specific job to do. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, that'd be cool. David - KG5EIU TX: That would be cool. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And, um, we're talking to different folks right now. Uh, we'll have a report on it more later, but, uh, the idea would be to sample. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): multiple beacons at one receiver using an SDR receiver, and then link that information back into the model, um… David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, you couldn't use the same receiver to do 24 and 47, but you could listen to 2 or 3. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 47 beacons on a single SDR. David - KG5EIU TX: Right. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, we're working on that, that's, uh, that's something to come, because we realized, and Bob really was the one that brought this up last meeting. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): is that the most valuable data… well, I mean, it's a toss-up, but I mean, the most valuable continuous training data will be links that are monitored 24-7 on the frequencies we're interested in. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Then, of course, the, uh, community, um, crowdsourcing it, as Mike calls it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, inputting their contacts, and… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): giving us data away from the contest period. We do have data away from the contest periods, but… you know, the great vast majority of the data is. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): from 10 GHz and up contest for 6 years. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. Mike K6ML: So the other thing is that at least your early data and the contest data is largely. Mike K6ML: I made a contact, and from the mode, you're inferring a certain minimum. Mike K6ML: Uh, margin. Mike K6ML: Whereas with the beacons and WSJT, you can have signal reports. Mike K6ML: And you can know what the actual margin was. Graham McIntire: Right. Mike K6ML: On a scale. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You… you're right. Graham McIntire: That's what we need more of, um… Graham McIntire: Because it's… I mean, it's already valuable that we know that the contacts were made, but it's also… Graham McIntire: Important that we know when they couldn't be made, and there's not a log that. Graham McIntire: Will allow us to do that, except by continuous monitoring. Mike K6ML: The extinction on the contest data between… this guy was 5'9+, rocking me out of my chair, and I barely made this contact. Well, if it says CW, you know it was weak, but that's about it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Graham McIntire: And all of the… all of the propagation data and signal levels and things like that just presume CW. Graham McIntire: Because that's gonna be best case for everything. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, so we don't have that dynamic range to know… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): This was a Q65 contact at the very edge, minus 26, versus… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You know, positive 10. Mike K6ML: Well, yeah, so the point is, for some of these… Mike K6ML: Yeah, the point is, for these modes, for the beacons and WSJT. Mike K6ML: now you have that data. So, any other, uh… Mike K6ML: Entry in the record, or whatever was the actual signal level. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yep. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, it goes without saying that we've come a long ways in a month. Mike K6ML: Yeah, sure, it's amazing. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): When we had 4 contacts. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And now we're having a discussion about… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): continuous monitoring of beacons, which, you know, there's a lot of work to that. I know that Mike Lavelle is, uh, the beacon builder, you might say, and I think that goes back to your satellite days. Mike K6ML: No, no, I just got the job this week, that's it. Bob N5BRG: Kind of faded out. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But every time I see an email from the Bay Area Society, they're. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): you know, Mike is working on a beacon, and I can sympathize with that. In fact, that's the subject of the next presentation. Bob N5BRG: Let me just mention that ideally what we would be monitoring on the beacons, I think, is. Bob N5BRG: Vertical and horizontal polarization reception. Bob N5BRG: And then you would also know what you… what was happening to the signal as it was passing through these. Bob N5BRG: Different ducting systems. Bob N5BRG: Just to make it more complicated. Mike K6ML: Well, right now, the whole model… I think the whole model right now assumes everything's horizontal, right? I mean, there's no… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Mike K6ML: No statement about polarization anywhere. Graham McIntire: Well, but it… it… it would benefit… Graham McIntire: I mean, it gets exponentially more difficult like that. Mike K6ML: Yeah, yeah, I'm just… I think it's fair, I mean, that's what we're all using. I mean, the… Mike K6ML: People… on moon mounts, they worry about polarization, but on terrestrial, everybody. Mike K6ML: It's pretty much horizontal. Graham McIntire: Yep. Bob N5BRG: But you may find out that you… you're missing the boat, and you… if you had a switch to switch between the two modes, you might be. Bob N5BRG: Able to make a queue that you couldn't make before. Mike K6ML: Yeah, no, my point is just nobody's generating transmissions on the other polarization listening. Bob N5BRG: Don't have any data to work with, yeah, okay. Mike K6ML: So, you can't collect that data at the moment, and we're not marking it either. Graham McIntire: But if it's being transmitted horizontally, it gets bounced around in a duct, it can easily do all sorts of weird things. Bob N5BRG: Yeah. David - KG5EIU TX: A side question for you guys, since it's starting to get storm season, what's the. David - KG5EIU TX: What's the minimum height, or… David - KG5EIU TX: You'd look for maybe making rain scatter contact. David - KG5EIU TX: Ideally. Graham McIntire: Um, brain scatter is one thing that this whole project data set, everything completely ignores. It does not care about it whatsoever. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. Yeah. David - KG5EIU TX: Alright. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, you get on Slack, and you get on, um, rainscatter.com. David - KG5EIU TX: And go after it, okay. I didn't know, just from experience. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And observe, yeah. David - KG5EIU TX: I mean, it's like, don't waste your time on 20,000 foot clouds, you know… Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, don't waste your time. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We love the 50 to 70,000 tops with high reflectivity. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): When it's between us and the station we're trying to work. David - KG5EIU TX: That's what I was after. Thank you. Mike K6ML: Well, I guess to that point, though, your database does include contest contacts, some of which are rain scattered. Mike K6ML: And they're not flagged as such, probably. Graham McIntire: Right, and the… the… some of the… Graham McIntire: Uh, context that it did import were… it had some EME and some rain scatter. Graham McIntire: Where we could, we filter those out? Graham McIntire: But that's part of the whole crowdsourcing, because we only know what we have. Graham McIntire: What we could find. Mike K6ML: Well, then… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um… Mike K6ML: As part of… I was gonna say, as part of that review process, you could have a place for users to indicate that it wasn't a straight terrestrial contact, it was a rain scatter. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Sorry, Mike, go ahead. Mike K6ML: Or it was an EME. Mike K6ML: Uh, and then you can either reject it or put it in a different VIN in the model. Graham McIntire: Right. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, Graham, is… is it possible to… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): evaluate the… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, I guess rain scatter, you know, is performed forward scatter and backscatter, but for the forward scatter case. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Could we know that there was a potential… well, first of all, it's a 10 GHz contact over 500 kilometers. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Second, there's a proximity of thunderstorm activity near the midpoint. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): At that time in space, at that gate. Graham McIntire: Uh, it… Graham McIntire: Depends. We should be able to figure that out, it just… it's not… Graham McIntire: Indicated right now, because we… we have all of the weather data. Graham McIntire: Essentially, behind the scenes, what the site is doing is when contacts are submitted, it goes and fetches the historical weather data. Graham McIntire: as much as it possibly can for those two spots and everything in between, up to a certain resolution. Uh, and then it runs the algorithm on it and then shows the results. Graham McIntire: Um, but since we already have that data, there's nothing preventing us from saying. Graham McIntire: It looks like there was possible rain scatter, you know, in between the two points. Mike K6ML: Maybe you could do a cooperative thing with Kent… I'm sorry, I don't remember his name, but mrinkscatter.com. Mike K6ML: To just basically apply his algorithm to the historical data and generate. Graham McIntire: Mm-hmm. Mike K6ML: You know, he generates maps basically showing where the reflection… likely reflection point is. Mike K6ML: For the given current weather. Mike K6ML: And a current path. Mike K6ML: So, you know, maybe you can leverage what he's already done. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I'll call that a rainy day project, Graham, no pun intended. Mike K6ML: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Graham McIntire: It's raining right now. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh, that's an interesting thought, though, those, uh, try to flag those rain scatter contacts, and just, like Mike says, put them in a different bin, because I think we're gonna be going there before it's over. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I mean, if you've got a mountain of data and it can give you one more, uh, analysis that can be useful that we've never had before, then why not go for it? Graham McIntire: Oh, exactly, and the whole point, like you were saying, Jim, is to get people out there and to make contacts. Graham McIntire: So, it doesn't really matter the method of how to make it, just, hey, if you can make it, go out there and do it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I appreciate that. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): All right, well, let's go on to the beacon project here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um… along those same lines as we've been talking, I mean, all of our beacon projects have been, um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): For the purpose of furthering propagation studies and helping us. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): understand the unknown, I guess. Now we know more, but we'd like the validation, and we'd like to incorporate this constant monitoring. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, back in. So, first of all, you've got to have the source of the signal. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And so, here comes another one. Now, I promised this one, uh, to Al. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, um, I think he intends to ask for it to be co-located on one of Greg's, uh, one of Graham's towers. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But I'm gonna hand it to him, and shake his hand and see where it ends up. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So let's get started. First of all, we based the design on the same RF deck that's in the tri-band beacon. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So if you're looking at this, you see 10 GHz on top, 24 in the middle. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): With the GPS and distribution unit at the back. And then you see the 47 on the bottom. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): All of these are driven by R of zeros. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): and various LOs. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, to be mixed and then, uh, arrive at the RF frequency. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Here is the original, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): tri-band beacon RF Deck. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And this is an 8x10 inch chunk of quarter inch aluminum. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, so you'll see the RF0 in the back left. Um, there's a 435MHz saw filter. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Kind of here… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then… you see… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, the tuning LO in the back here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And these two inputs, plus the, um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Let's see, what am I missing? No, there's just two inputs, so it'll be the IF and the LO are coming into this board with the pipe cap filters. And then the RF output, uh, which is mixed and amplified and filtered. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): is coming through this attenuator on the lower right, and then through this blue cable up to the quadrupler. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Which then is got a waveguide attachment to this W1 GHz horn. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And that's how that goes. And so, uh, I wanted to make a smaller package, uh, so that you don't have to bear-hug it when you pick it up. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And… so I'll get to that here in a minute, but this is the topology. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, again, you've got the RF0 on the far left, which will modulate CW plus a carrier plus Q65. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Runs through a sawtooth filter here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The third Harmonic is picked off. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And we go into this, uh, WA1 MBA board. Now, he made these special after, uh… if you saw this tri-band beacon in Tucson, it had all the discrete components on it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It didn't have this nice little board that's… he barely can… I mean, it's just a little tiny board, it's about that big. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, and it takes, uh, an LO input, uh, IF input. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, does some, uh, amplification, some filtering with the three pot cap filters. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): and then out comes, um, 11772. Now, the one… the frequency I've got here… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): is the way that Al's beacon is designed. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Because it will come in at a frequency that is, um… it's 10 kilohertz away, I can't remember if it's higher or lower than the other beacon. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It's… it's higher. About 10 kilohertz higher. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And so I had to get to these, uh… that was all about just programming the, uh, dB6NTLO. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Because, you see, its frequency is 113370875. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And once that's mixed with 435, you come out with 11772.0875. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You multiply that times 4, you come in at 47088.350. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That'll make sense. I think our other one's at 360, so I might have that backwards, which one's the higher and lower? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, the levels are really super important, and I can never remember them, so I've written them down on this sheet so that I won't forget them. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But, you know, there's a sweet spot for this mixer. It's a mini-circuits mixer on that board. It calls for 7 dBm, and that's the perfect… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): input. And then, um, this Quadrupler's kind of sensitive, you don't want to exceed 6 dBm, so I had to mess with the attenuators, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You know, you use a really cheap 3 dB attenuator and it attenuates 6 dB at this frequency. So anyhow, I just kept trying to keep using a cheap attenuator until I found the right, uh, level and I got it right. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Out comes 12 dBm from the Quadrupler. The Sectoral horn is 19 dBi. I calculate losses are probably around .7. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): This is a direct attach in the new design. No waveguide. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then, uh, so it gives you an ERP of about a watt. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I wanted to show you the effect of this sawtooth filter. Of course, those of you that have experience know how well they work, but this thing is really pretty awesome. It turns the spectrum over here on the left, which is 1 gig wide, and there's our signal of interest right there. Drops it by about 2 or 3 dB inserted, but look how it cleans up things. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The signal tone spacing's kind of tricky on these, um, 47 gig beacons. I'm not going to go over this, but it is in here should you want it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The main thing is, you've got to get the tone spacing to come out right, or otherwise, if you say you're transmitting Q65C60. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, the receiving party is gonna dial that in on their WSJTX. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And if your spacing's goofy, they won't be able to decode it. So, as we go up, uh, first by the Harmonic, because we picked off the third from 145. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That's a times 3 multiplier. And then we quadruple… the mix doesn't add anything, so you don't have to consider the tone spacing in the mix. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But when you multiply through the quadrupler, you end up with a multiplication factor of 12. The non-intuitive thing is that you have to set the R of zero up. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): for 1740 for a specific reason to get the tone spacing right. And you'll have to do this math here. If you do it and understand it, um, I'll give you a gold star. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Here is the actual RF0 config. This is the, you know, this with the design will get you right there. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Multiplication factor is 12. Here's the frequency of 1740 MHz. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And here is the, uh, string for the default call sign. Now, this is the important thing, the W5LUA stroke B, that's used in CW string, and the bottom W5LUA stroke B is used in the Q65. The grid. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I stuck it in here, but it's never really used. And the reason why is because of this config up here that says, wait for valid GPS before transmitting. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 1 equals yes. Now, why did I do that? Why do you wait for a valid GPS signal before you transmit? Well… I modified the code. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So… this test up here is testing that switch. And if… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I have configured it as such, which I have. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Then it drops to, while not valid, just yield. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Else, get the locator. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And that's the magic. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And it will just go get the the. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): uh… decompose the GPS string, we'll do the math, it will get the locator, and now we have the locator for where the box is at at the moment. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Then we just stick a zero on the end of that string. You know, indexing in these bit byte arrays starts at zero, so… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): This is actually the 7th position, because we've got 6 characters in this locator variable. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then we're going to copy the call, which is from the previous configuration, where we said W5LUA stroke B. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): into the MGM message, which is the WSJT message that's going to be transmitted. It's called MGM message. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Then we stick a space. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Then we stick the locator. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Which is 6 long. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then we stick a terminating zero into memory there. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Then we fall down here, and we call the setup Q65. With the given mode, Q65C, whatever's configured back here by this value where it says. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Where's it say? Where's it say? Where's it say? Here, at the bottom. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Q65 mode number 12, it doesn't… it doesn't show you with the dot dot dots, but 12 is Q6560C. And that's how it does it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): To program the DB6NT frequency, I'm talking to Greg McIntire now, because he's done the pain here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): If this is what you're trying to get to, in my case it was on the new beacon, I want to get 11.337.087.500. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): you come in like this. So, first of all, I left it like this on purpose because there's a difference between that V and that V. The second V is a lowercase V. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And you have to use case-sensitive commands here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You can use putty, you don't have to use this thing, but there's a lot of ways to communicate with the LO. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But here, I'm saying, um, gigahertz frequency is 011. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It acknowledges that with an A. A is the happy path. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Megahertz frequency is 337. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): A for happy path. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): lowercase K for kilohertz frequency, ought 87. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): A for happy. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, somehow I did it twice, it don't mind that. It's sticking these in, you know, register positions. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then finally, Hertz frequency. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 500. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And that is how we build. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): that string up there, and don't forget to put in the SFR command, that saves the frequency into EEPROM. So now you can turn the thing off and on. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Come back. So here's the math. You take the LO, add the IF frequency, that gives you a number, multiplied times 4. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): There's your frequency. Final R frequency. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Ready to deploy. Here it is in its little package. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You got the W1, uh, WA1 MBA board over here on the left. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): got a sectoral horn here. I can also switch this to a, um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Conical horn, but, um, I figure if Al puts this close by, it's going to be really loud anyway, and so getting more of an omni pattern would probably be better than the conical horn, especially if we have a receiver out to the west that will be monitoring the beacon 24/7. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Back in the background here is the quadrupler. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): On the lower deck is the RF0. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, little power supply, and you can't see it tucked in, uh, back here on the backplane, but the… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): DB6NTLO is back there. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then this box, this black box slung down here is the GPS. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And below that, there's a terminal strip, uh, with all the DC connections. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): To drive this, you either have, uh, 12 volts on the tower. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Or I have a hundred… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): amp-hour LiPo in a 100-watt panel, solar panel. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And a controller that will give you power. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): For up to three days of cloudiness. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So… we can withstand up to 3 days. Now, this beacon does not have remote turn on and turn-off capabilities, so once it gets flipped on, and there's the switch on the right. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): My dad used to say X equals 2 pi over square root of LC, but where the the switch? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): There's the switch. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, I wanna give you a demo, and you, you know, my comment, usually demos don't go well, but I've been letting this stuff. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): burn in over here for the whole time we've been on this meeting, so… I'm gonna switch cameras… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I'll also switch the audio. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Let's see, what am I doing wrong? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Somehow I need to get this in the main screen, don't I? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It doesn't work that way. I thought it would. Um, we've got a… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): camera trained on the beacons. I see that it's up in a picture that would normally show my face. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, let me see if I can at least get the audio to track over there. Mike K6ML: Think I need to stop screen sharing. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Mike K6ML: To get the camera. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Might make a difference, huh? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I don't know why. David - KG5EIU TX: Is the beacon the both boxes, or is it just the one on the far right? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It is both boxes. Can you hear me okay? David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, you're a little muffled, but yeah, we can hear you just fine, so it's, the whole beacon is both of these boxes then. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): No, um, let me see if I can position my computer so that I can talk and point at the same time. I actually do have a pointer. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So this is the IF radio up here, and there are 2 signals. David - KG5EIU TX: 705. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And they're 10 kilohertz apart. I'll turn up the volume. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): This is the new beacon down here. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The multiplier's back here… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The filter board's here, the RF0 is here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The GPS is here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): This is the other beacon over here with 3 different RF boards. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay. Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The 47 is turned on. David - KG5EIU TX: Alright. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I want this to ID in CW, so folks that don't know CW will know which one this one is tracking. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): This one on the left is the W5LUA beacon. This one on the right will sign W5HN. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Stroke V. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Here, after we listen to this for a few minutes, I'm going to demonstrate how the. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, remote control works through a cell phone app. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): and it will communicate with this device up here. I don't think you can see the antennas that are up here. I've got, you know, a stack of antennas on top of the beacon. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But, um, it's constantly monitoring for commands. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And when it receives those commands, it will, uh, analyze them through the Arduino program. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): and then turn on the appropriate MOSFET, which in turn turns on the different RF depths. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Right now, we've just got the GPS turned on, and we've got the 47 deck, uh, on. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Here comes our CW. So, whatever I'm tuned to here… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, we'll hear the ID here in a minute. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It's this one we're listening to. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, it's gonna… both beacons are gonna sign EM12IL, because that's where we're at. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We're at my house right now. I pulled this off the… I had this on the tower. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, and I pulled it off. So, we're listening to the right hand beacon right now, which. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, sines W5HN, but it right now has a grid of EM12. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): IL. Now we'll spin up here and listen to the other one. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): All you have to do is do anything here, and you'll get Doppler. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Any wiggle… this is the 47 rig, by the way, this is the… what's doing the receiving. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But again, if I wiggle my hand… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Anything. I can walk clear across the shop, be 20 feet away, and you can hear Doppler. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, from all the signal bouncing around in here. Now, to set up the IF rig, I had to turn the RF gain all the way down as far as it would go. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, cause it's just swamping, uh, these 47 GHz signals are swamping. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Again, we're listening to this one. If you can see this red light right here, that will flash the CW when it comes. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Right now, it just pulses on every symbol, uh, every group of symbols that are sent. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): The yellow light is, uh, the GPS heartbeat. David - KG5EIU TX: These beacons are only 1 way, right? They transmit only, they won't receive a signal and report back. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And there you go. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): No, they're transmitters. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): They're transmitters. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Alright, now I'm gonna use my phone. It's right here, and you can see I'm monitoring our broadcast. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I'm gonna go to the app where we do these commands. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And here it is. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And so, I'm going to turn on the 10GHz beacon, which is this command right here. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And you click this arrow, and that will turn on this top deck. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, first you'll see… Al W5LUA: I think we lost Jim. David - KG5EIU TX: Come back, we… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Coming… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Back here, I don't think that'll probably show up. David - KG5EIU TX: Uh-oh. Al W5LUA: Oh, he lost you, Jim. Oh, he is muted, isn't he? Bob N5BRG: Well, I think he had two different monitors going, and one of them was muted, and he may not realize the other one has dropped out yet, so hopefully he's watching and can see that he's missing out. David - KG5EIU TX: He'll get to do it twice, he'll get dry run… he's doing a dry run now, and he'll do it again. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yep. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Can you hear me? David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, we're back, you're back, we can hear you now. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, yeah, I think I, uh, shut down my monitor by accident, uh, pressing all the buttons on the… I was showing how to send commands to the beacon. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And if you're still watching, we'll turn it off. And, um, that's… we can throw this out here in front here, so it's… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): First, we'll turn off the tin. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Which is the top, uh, top deck. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Let's turn off. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 24… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Turn off. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And 47. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, power off. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then finally, GPS. power off. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, those go through a queue, so they may take a minute to get there, but eventually all of that will acquiesce and, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): it will shut down. The only thing that will stay on is the, uh, cell phone monitoring. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That's up there? And it'll stay on at all times. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, this beacon box here is drawing. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): A little bit more than 5 amps when it's all up. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, um… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): If it's on a solar-powered battery, it's gonna have to be pretty healthy. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And it would, uh… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Be better if it's on power. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I'm using a 20 amp LiPo on it right now. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, so I can take questions. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): If there are any. David - KG5EIU TX: Is there a Wi-Fi option for the app that you're using, and then the cellular control board? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): There is… I know there is, there is not, uh, it's not employed here. David - KG5EIU TX: Okay. I was just curious. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But, I do know there are, um, options. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Any other comments? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, I think we're down to the 24 GHz is still lit. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, so, um, wanted to have the ability to turn stuff on and off here because of. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Originally, I thought it would be powered by solar. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It would be an economical thing to turn on just one. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Check the propagation, and turn it off, and turn on another one, check the propagation. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): But in light of what we've talked about today, it might be best to try to locate this where we will have. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, continuous power. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, everything has turned off in here. The only thing I see is, um, the DC-to-DC converter showing 5 volts. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And that's over to this, uh, hologram card, which has the cell. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): uh, connectivity. It's blinking… it's steady red and blinking blue. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Which means it has a signal. Let's gonna show you these antennas, maybe you can see them. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Now, there's a, uh, radome on the left side, that's 10 GHz. That's a 40 slot. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): 40 Alfred Slott. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): On the far right is a… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It's at least 40 slots on 24GHz. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then the middle antenna is the cell phone. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, I'll bring up the agenda, which we've kind of, um, jumped through. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then we'll just see what else we've got here. We're getting, uh, upwards of… 4 hours in the meeting now. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I note that we have a pretty strong attendance. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I believe we're going to try to be back at David's place this next month. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): All right, um, did you see the agenda? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Welcome to North Texas microwave Slide. David - KG5EIU TX: We can see that just fine. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Uh, so this was what we just did. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Here's some notifications of what else has left this. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): important to note that the Central States VHF, uh, has their spring sprints. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): We had talked about potential. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, antenna tune-up party on the 24th. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I guess we need to think about this some more. Al W5LUA: I think you mean the 25th? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Did we mean the 25th? Al W5LUA: Yeah, the 24th is a Friday. Al W5LUA: Unless we're talking about me. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Oh, really? Okay, let's see, what do you think? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Is May 24th a Saturday? Al W5LUA: Sunday. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Sunday. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, my fingers are going all over the pulse. I tried to write on my piece of paper while I had it over the keyboard. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, I guess we just need to circle back and think about the tune-up party. We talked first about being 122GHz. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I think. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And I'd love to do that. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Just to get the dust knocked off the gear. Al W5LUA: Yeah, I probably won't be around that weekend. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Well, that ain't no fun. Al W5LUA: And… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, uh, here's the May schedule, so we're coming up on this now. May 2nd, uh, be our activity day. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, spring sprint on 902 and above, same day. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And a meeting on May 9th. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And then 6 meter spring sprint on May 9th also. Here's our perpetual stuff. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Then… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Anybody got anything else they'd like to talk about, or show off, or brag about? Al W5LUA: You've done a lot of good work there, Jim. Al W5LUA: We appreciate it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Thank you. I need to make arrangements to come up and drop this beacon off to you. Al W5LUA: Nope, we can do that. Al W5LUA: Talk to you off channel. David - KG5EIU TX: Big shout out to… big shout-out to Greg for, uh, talking… talking to me about some, uh, different… David - KG5EIU TX: 10 GHz things, and… David - KG5EIU TX: Uh, I posted a link out there, I don't know if everybody saw it, but it was for printing, uh. David - KG5EIU TX: A slimline… David - KG5EIU TX: Feedhorn holder. David - KG5EIU TX: And I actually printed one, so… David - KG5EIU TX: Um, it turned out pretty well. That's why I need the bolts for the dish. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Cool. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, David, what's the inside diameter of that clamp when it's… when it's snugged all the way? David - KG5EIU TX: A good question, I don't have that off the top of my head, but this is what I'll be using with it, this, uh… David - KG5EIU TX: What is it, uh, IOJXX? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Will it fit around the neck there, the, the… David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, there's a… there's a, uh… David - KG5EIU TX: A spacer. David - KG5EIU TX: There's a… there's a spacer that it goes on. David - KG5EIU TX: So this, this, this latches up really nice. David - KG5EIU TX: And then, this fits… this fits really, really nice. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. David - KG5EIU TX: Hope you can see it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Gotcha. Now, was this… did you make the spacer, or where did that come from? David - KG5EIU TX: So, the spacer came with the… David - KG5EIU TX: the feed horn that I… I got this from, uh, DX Engineering, it's out of Italy. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. What, what is the, what is the, uh, spacer made out of? David - KG5EIU TX: This spacer is 3D printed. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So it's a resin. David - KG5EIU TX: It's, it's a resin, yeah, it's probably PETG or maybe ABS. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That's gonna be UV proof, right? David - KG5EIU TX: Yes, yes. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Very good. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, the, uh, the, the, the bracket I… that I… this is printed in ABS. David - KG5EIU TX: So, UV… UV resistant, UV proof. David - KG5EIU TX: Alright. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Barry, do you have the death ray there? David - KG5EIU TX: And I ordered the Down East Microwave Transverter. Barry VE4MA: For me. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Very good. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Is that a lethal, uh, weapon you've got, Barry? Barry VE4MA: Uh, this is my Artemis feed that I had for my 8-foot offset dish. Barry VE4MA: I don't know if I can get it in the picture. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah, it's showing up. Barry VE4MA: This, uh, I've got the, uh, preamps and, uh, bandpass filter, because I was concerned about, uh, overload from cell sites, and… Barry VE4MA: Because 2.1 gigs is fairly close, so… Barry VE4MA: And, uh… Barry VE4MA: Now, it's hard to see the feed, but it's… I had to use a mesh. This is about 1 foot in diameter, so this is a 1.88 wavelength W2 IMU feed. Barry VE4MA: Which is basically what I think Al and I are using on, uh, 24, and… Barry VE4MA: It's, uh, really efficient for, uh, an offset dish. Barry VE4MA: And this thing is about 3 feet long, so it really sticks out in front of the… Barry VE4MA: you know, of the dish, and was one of the problems I had, uh, when I tipped down 14 degrees was as low as I could go before the feed would hit the ground, so… Barry VE4MA: And then there's a circular polarization section here made out of old coffee cans, uh, small coffee cans. Barry VE4MA: Anyway, it was all for naught, or… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): No. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Does the wire mesh serve the purpose of keeping the birds out? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Plus, some RF steering. Barry VE4MA: Uh, it… it's strictly, uh… Barry VE4MA: RF steering and it didn't do anything to keep the birds out, I, uh. Barry VE4MA: I ended up, uh… Barry VE4MA: Having to stuff some plastic bags in the horn so that the snow didn't accumulate. Barry VE4MA: Because, uh, you know, when it's mounted in the dish, it's pointed up, right? So… Barry VE4MA: Low elevation. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): That's cool. Barry VE4MA: That's all I've got. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay, uh, we'll swing through this, uh, old business, new business. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, I did note that the micro-grant from Irving Club Materials is out there. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I'll get to that, uh, and probably list this 47 GHz beacon, uh, seeking some… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Funding back to the… back to our club. David - KG5EIU TX: They're, uh, they're expecting a, uh, I talked, I talked up the NTMS guys pretty heavy. David - KG5EIU TX: They're looking forward to the submission. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Good. Thank you. David - KG5EIU TX: Happy to help with the mission, or if you guys want to do a WebEx? David - KG5EIU TX: Or, uh, Zoom, or whatever, let me know, happy to help. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Okay. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, I don't believe that Wes is with us, but we got a report from him. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, Al and I did on paid members, and… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): After Al made a email asking for support, the number of paid members, I think it basically doubled, didn't it, Al? Al W5LUA: Yeah, that's correct. Uh, so what's 60-some. Al W5LUA: And a lot of donations as well. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Yeah. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): So, good things to report there. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Uh, so we know that these costs continue to increase. Um, we're obviously ahead at this point. We'd like to stay that way, and, um, it's coming up time to. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Think about the, um… ARRL Spectrum Defense Fund donation. Al W5LUA: I would certainly make a recommendation that we do a donation. It's been, I think, a year or so. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): All right, uh, do you have an amount in mind, um, Al? Al W5LUA: Well, I think we've done 300 in the past. Al W5LUA: I mean, that's… a lot of members, but, uh, you know, maybe… 200, maybe? Al W5LUA: We do have reserve. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I think we should go 300 and keep up the pace that we have in the past when things weren't as good. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Anybody want to second that? Bob N5BRG: I'll second it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Bob seconds it. David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. I'll throw it. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Anybody opposed? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Alright, so Carrie… Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Um, here's some… kind of a stale slide, but anyway, we do have the option to, uh, donate now on the homepage. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): And, uh, people are using it, so it's been good decisions. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): I think Bob was the one that suggested we do that, and uh… it paid off. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Do you have any motion to adjourn? David - KG5EIU TX: Motion to adjourn. Barry VE4MA: Seconded. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): There's a second, couple seconds. All right, guys, uh, really appreciate your attendance today, and your, uh… Bob N5BRG: Second. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Contributions? Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): It's exciting times, and uh… gotta probably expect even better. Barry VE4MA: Thanks for all the good work, Jim. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): You bet. Al W5LUA: Thank you, Jim. David - KG5EIU TX: Thank you, Jim. Thanks, everybody. Pat W5VY: Thanks, Jim. Jim (NTMS_Zoom_Host): Thank you. Bye bye all. Barry VE4MA: 73. Steve K5MNZ: Thanks, Jim.