WEBVTT 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.000 G8EMY/W5: Someone else! Greetings! 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:53.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Good afternoon! 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:56.000 G8EMY/W5: It is, by a few minutes. 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:01.000 G8EMY/W5: Oh, we know who the early birds are. 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:07.000 David - KG5EIU TX: GAEM Y. 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:08.000 G8EMY/W5: Yes. 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:14.000 G8EMY/W5: Also, WA5VJB, that's my British call. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:18.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, okay. I was gonna just look you up here. 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:26.000 David - KG5EIU TX: I guess this doesn't start till 12:30, right? Is that right? 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:31.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, we've been known to BS for a little bit before the meeting. 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, that's what I thought, that's what I thought. 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:42.000 G8EMY/W5: Yeah, I'm, uh, also a founding member of the UK Microwave Group, and a founding member of the North Texas Microwave Society. 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:45.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Wonderful, wonderful. I'm, uh… 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:49.000 David - KG5EIU TX: I'm just getting started with the whole microwave, uh… 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:51.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Set of bands. 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:58.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, well, you'll quickly find that they go a lot further than what people used to think. 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:10.000 David - KG5EIU TX: That's what I'm learning. Um, I haven't made a contact yet. I've heard signals, but I haven't actually made or logged a contact, and that's on my to-do list here before the year's end, so… 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, which band? 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:15.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Uh, 10GHz is what I'm going for. I'll take, I'll take… 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:21.000 David - KG5EIU TX: 2.4, 5, or 10 is what I can put right now, or 1.2, but… 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.000 G8EMY/W5: Okay. 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:24.000 G8EMY/W5: I'm personally up to 14 countries on 10 gig. 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:29.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Oh, man, that's, uh… that's impressive. 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:33.000 G8EMY/W5: If it ain't half a million miles, it's not a DX contact. 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:36.000 David - KG5EIU TX: There you go. 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:40.000 G8EMY/W5: But, uh, yeah, we quickly learned that, uh… 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:44.000 G8EMY/W5: You've got turbulence in the atmosphere. 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:47.000 G8EMY/W5: And the signal scatters off of the turbulence. 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:53.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, I can work out Ward from 100 miles away any time of the day or night. 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:57.000 G8EMY/W5: Just give me a relatively clear shot back at him. 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:07.000 G8EMY/W5: Um, and, uh, quite further than that, quite often, and of course, recently, the rain scatter has been officially discovered. 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:13.000 G8EMY/W5: And, uh, so now you talk to Kansas while pointing at a thunderstorm over Oklahoma. 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:20.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Right, right. I've been looking at that website, and I'm anxious to give it a go here. Like I said, just getting started here. 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:26.000 David - KG5EIU TX: I've only got 3 watts on 10 gig, but mostly what happens. 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:31.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, there, uh, there was a time when that would have made you the most powerful station in the 5th Call District. 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:32.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Right, right. 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:39.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, 3 watts is a lot of power on 10 gig, because you're gonna multiply it by a factor of 100 going through a small antenna. 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:41.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Right, right. 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:48.000 G8EMY/W5: And, uh, the important thing is the sensitivity of the receivers are so much greater. 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:55.000 G8EMY/W5: Back in the early days, we were running FM-modulated oscillators with a diode receiver. 00:09:55.000 --> 00:10:05.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, line of sight was about the best you could do. I challenge you to get on 20 meters with a modulated 10 milliwatt oscillator and a diode receiver and see how far you get. 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:09.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Right, right, right. 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:12.000 G8EMY/W5: So, what have you… what have you got on 10 gig? 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:17.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Uh, no contacts, I'm running an ICOM 905. 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:19.000 G8EMY/W5: Okay, now you just need to… 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:22.000 G8EMY/W5: Get the antenna up in the air. 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:33.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yep, get the antenna up in the air, and I got that, uh… that, like I said, I got that 3-watt, uh… 4 watt… actually, it's 4-watt amp out of Italy, that guy that makes… makes the amps out of Italy, so… 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:35.000 G8EMY/W5: Where are you located? 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:37.000 David - KG5EIU TX: I'm here in St. Paul, Texas. 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:40.000 G8EMY/W5: I don't know where that one is. 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.000 David - KG5EIU TX: So, you know where Wiley is? 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.000 G8EMY/W5: Wide Awake Wiley? 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:45.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Wide awake Wiley. 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:50.000 G8EMY/W5: Okay, well, in your case, you'd probably need about a 30 dB attenuator to work outward. 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:57.000 David - KG5EIU TX: He's the guy who I was listening to, uh, when I had it set up in the backyard. 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:02.000 David - KG5EIU TX: He couldn't hear me, but I was only running a half a watt out of the 905 into a. 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:04.000 David - KG5EIU TX: I don't know… 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:07.000 David - KG5EIU TX: 18 inch piece of coax… 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:09.000 David - KG5EIU TX: into a… 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:12.000 David - KG5EIU TX: I don't know, I think it was a 24-inch dish. 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:17.000 G8EMY/W5: Of a 24-inch dish, the odds are you were never pointed at him. 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:23.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, I, I had a pretty good beat on them. I, I was using, um, what is it, Theodite? 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:25.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Do you like… 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:34.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, let's, uh, you, uh, hold your, uh, arm… hand at arm's length, look at your thumb, and that's how wide your beam is. 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:36.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, yeah. 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:38.000 G8EMY/W5: And, uh, you miss it by a little bit. 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:44.000 G8EMY/W5: So that's a… we had one guy who always insisted on going mobile with a 10-foot dish. 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:47.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, I need the dB, I need the game. 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:49.000 G8EMY/W5: We never worked in. 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:51.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Huh. 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:59.000 G8EMY/W5: I mean, his beam was half a degree wide, and that's half a degree left and right, and up and down, and he never got appointed at us. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Right, right, right. 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:11.000 G8EMY/W5: Personally, I have found that putting a small horn on about 10 or 15 feet of push-up pole works better than having a dish with the edge in the dirt. 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:15.000 David - KG5EIU TX: That makes sense. 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Those horns are… those horns are pretty… pretty interesting to me. 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:25.000 G8EMY/W5: Mm-hmm. And, uh, I've done a lot of mobile in motion, which is fun. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:32.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, you start… you stop, you start talking to a guy, and then you accelerate the highway speed, and you gotta tune 800 Hz to follow him. 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:39.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, the fun one is, like, driving through downtown Fort Worth or downtown Dallas. 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:41.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:45.000 G8EMY/W5: The signal is now bounced off of 20 different buildings. Each one has a different Doppler shift. 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:50.000 G8EMY/W5: So now the human voice starts sounding like a 20-meter pileup. 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:55.000 David - KG5EIU TX: That's… that's… 00:12:55.000 --> 00:13:00.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Sounds like the 10-meter contest that I just stopped playing with. 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:05.000 G8EMY/W5: Ah, then, uh, on, uh, FM, a lot of the Doppler, uh. 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:10.000 G8EMY/W5: Which is actually an amplitude effect that goes away when we have FM, you get limiting. 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:20.000 G8EMY/W5: But as a guy starts to go over a hill, you get because the limiters no longer have enough signal to work with, so you always get a just before you lose the signal. 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:32.000 G8EMY/W5: Yeah, I've got a slot antenna I stick up on the van, been running mobile for, she's pushing 40 years now. 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:34.000 G8EMY/W5: There was, uh… 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:45.000 G8EMY/W5: One, uh… it's kind of like the High Five over, uh, LBJ and 75, but this one's out near, uh, Loop 820 and Interstate 20 in South Fort Worth. 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.000 G8EMY/W5: and I drove up on top of that. 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:50.000 G8EMY/W5: Got out a map. 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:57.000 G8EMY/W5: I was over as far on the side as I could, got on a map and looked like I was a bewildered traveler, and I had a knee key. 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:06.000 G8EMY/W5: And I worked out on, uh, uh, mobile from, uh, up on top of that overpass with the, uh, mobile rig. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.000 G8EMY/W5: Gotta have fun at this, right? 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:30.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Gotta have fun, you know, it's always something. They've got that, uh, new FT8 Battle Royale out. I don't know if you've seen that, that's… 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:36.000 David - KG5EIU TX: They're gamifying FT8, so it's, uh, a whole other twist to. 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:41.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Watching paint dry, as they say, but um… 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:46.000 G8EMY/W5: I… I do not have a… I do not have a computer in the ham shack, I have never made a digital contact. 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:43.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Funny. 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:54.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Well, um, there's always, uh, there's, there's always that opportunity for you, but, uh, they've gamified, uh. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:58.000 David - KG5EIU TX: FT8 and FT4 across the bands, it's. 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.000 G8EMY/W5: Hmm? 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:00.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Pretty interesting. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:06.000 G8EMY/W5: Yeah, my Moonbounce contacts have all been with traditional CW. 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.000 David - KG5EIU TX: And there you go. 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:15.000 David - KG5EIU TX: I'm just getting started with CW. I did the CQ Worldwide CW contest for the first time. 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:21.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Back here a couple weeks ago, that was my first CW. 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Contest. 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:29.000 G8EMY/W5: When I got my British license, uh, you're required to, quote, demonstrate a knowledge of code. 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:34.000 G8EMY/W5: End quote. And apparently, if you know SOS, you pass. 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:33.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Bye. 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:44.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, my instructor had a code key there, and I picked up a piece of paper and started straight key to him at 15 words a minute. 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:48.000 G8EMY/W5: Okay, I passed. 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:55.000 G8EMY/W5: Yeah, the exam's a for an American, and they have, uh… 00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:58.000 G8EMY/W5: They love double negatives. 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:02.000 G8EMY/W5: all… I saw a triple negative on one question. 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Oh, yeah. 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:07.000 G8EMY/W5: All the answers are correct, but one is more correct than the others. 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.000 David - KG5EIU TX: There you go. 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:11.000 G8EMY/W5: And, uh, they've got schematic symbols we don't have. 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:16.000 G8EMY/W5: And if you want to run ATV on the 160 meters. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:23.000 G8EMY/W5: Ofcom doesn't care, just keep all your noise in the handband. Greetings, Mr. Burry. 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:26.000 G8EMY/W5: And there's somebody I've worked on 10 gig. 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.000 G8EMY/W5: Your microphone is muted. 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, gotcha now. Yeah. 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:36.000 G8EMY/W5: Yes, uh, Barry is someone that I've worked on 10 gig. 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:37.000 Barry VE4MA: That was a long time ago. 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:39.000 G8EMY/W5: And a new country! 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:45.000 Barry VE4MA: We haven't been on much since then, though. 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:51.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, well, it's… I'm… it's the way I'd set everything up on a table underneath the dish. 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:58.000 Barry VE4MA: Well, you could do that there probably today. You can't do it here. It was minus 39C here this morning. 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.000 G8EMY/W5: Ooh, brisk! 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, well, this is the time of year, so… 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:12.000 G8EMY/W5: Um, you know, they're, uh, forecasting, uh, 73 degrees later today. 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.000 G8EMY/W5: Fahrenheit, of course. 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:18.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, that's alright. 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:24.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, the cold is sticking around in the north so far, so… 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.000 G8EMY/W5: So… 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.000 G8EMY/W5: So, the, uh… 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.000 G8EMY/W5: Those, uh, uh… 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:35.000 G8EMY/W5: transistors. I didn't realize anything else was using other than, uh, BAO's, uh, board. 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:39.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, that's right. Well, I'm sure they weren't common, so… 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:45.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, I had a reel of them, and I got a reel of them about 10 years ago. 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:52.000 G8EMY/W5: And I didn't know what to do with them, so I gave them out, you know, 5 to this guy, 6 to this guy, and I gave out all of them except a few. 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:55.000 G8EMY/W5: and I ended up, like, I've got, like, 2 left. 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:02.000 G8EMY/W5: But, uh, BAO, who's a little weird as far as using different things that's… 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:11.000 G8EMY/W5: He, he's not a cooperative guy, shall we say that, um, and when I wanted to run off some of the boards, he was very. 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:16.000 G8EMY/W5: I don't… oh, well, we'll skip over that, but anyway, I've got boards for those parts. 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:21.000 G8EMY/W5: And, uh, could easily run off another batch, so… 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:28.000 G8EMY/W5: It just is he used that really weird surface mount, um… 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:35.000 G8EMY/W5: Voltage regulator, and I just laid out the board for a good ol' standard 7805. 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:42.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I think the, uh, that surface mount regulator… 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:45.000 Barry VE4MA: I know Donnie's microwave, uh… 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:51.000 Barry VE4MA: was using some of those, and they… I guess they're… they're just not commonly available anymore, so… 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:58.000 G8EMY/W5: 7805, so you can even be able to get those at Radio Shack. 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, but not in that surface mount package, though. 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.000 G8EMY/W5: Exactly. 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.000 Barry VE4MA: And that's what the industry seemed to favor, I thought, but… 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:17.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, I'm up to my ass in alligators. I've got, uh, an open order for 1,150 antennas from the Ukraine. 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:18.000 Barry VE4MA: Wow. 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.000 G8EMY/W5: And I already have 1,150 over there. 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:27.000 G8EMY/W5: And the latest badge no longer have my call letters on them. 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:30.000 Barry VE4MA: Ah, nice! 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:37.000 G8EMY/W5: So, uh, doing a lot of X-band, uh, stuff for them, uh, direction-finding antennas for, uh. 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:43.000 G8EMY/W5: GPS jammers, direction fighting antennas for artillery counterfire radars. 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:51.000 G8EMY/W5: And, uh, now they're wanting to move back down into S-band for some stuff, so I'm doing, uh, 500 S-band antennas for them. 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:53.000 Barry VE4MA: Wow. 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:57.000 G8EMY/W5: I keep telling them, it's about time you gave me a Ukrainian security clearance. 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:03.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I would think so. 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:07.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:10.000 G8EMY/W5: And have you ever done any business with a company up in your area called Biddle? 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:19.000 Barry VE4MA: Uh, I'm familiar with it because of, I think, high-voltage testing equipment, but that's about all. 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:29.000 G8EMY/W5: They're in an assembly house, yeah. They're making equipment for, uh, the Ukraine EW equipment, and uh, I'm supposed to send them 150 antennas. 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, really? Wow. 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:38.000 G8EMY/W5: Any suggestions on what to put on the customs forms when you're sending them across the border? 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:45.000 G8EMY/W5: Ham… unpopulated circuit boards, uh, ham radio antennas, uh, no commercial value, uh. 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Scrap, yeah, yeah, ham… ham radio scrap parts. 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:47.000 Barry VE4MA: Great. 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:50.000 G8EMY/W5: Hmm. 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:53.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, yeah, and you probably want to… yeah, I don't know… 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:57.000 Barry VE4MA: What I've found is the customs people don't know what ham radio is anymore. 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:00.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh-oh. Amateur radio? 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:03.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, maybe amateur radio, because they might be able to look that up. 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.000 G8EMY/W5: Oh, okay. 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:10.000 Barry VE4MA: But, yeah, no commercial value, yeah, that's always a good term. I know it works. 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:16.000 G8EMY/W5: Because I had… I, uh… I don't get boards made in China very often, but when I did last time. 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:24.000 G8EMY/W5: They got stuck in California. Since they were printed circuit boards, I wanted to know where my FCC compliance paperwork was. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, God. 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:34.000 G8EMY/W5: Because they thought they were computer boards, and I'm going, no, they're just pieces of fiberglass with some copper on them, uh. 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:40.000 G8EMY/W5: And that didn't help much when you're talking to a little girl who's sitting there looking at papers. 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:52.000 Barry VE4MA: Well, I'm glad you're helping the Ukrainians out. I feel sorry for those guys. Pissed. 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Man… 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:57.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, this is… it's the fourth war between red Russia and white Russia. 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.000 Barry VE4MA: Pisses me off. 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:07.000 G8EMY/W5: When the German army was marched into the Ukraine. 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:12.000 G8EMY/W5: In 1941, they were met with flowers, not guns. 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:16.000 G8EMY/W5: Because they were saving them from Stalin. 00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Hmm. 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:23.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I have some distant relatives that got carted off to Siberia, so… 00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:26.000 G8EMY/W5: That's a one-way trip. 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:27.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:33.000 Barry VE4MA: I should say I had distant relatives. 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:41.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, what got this started was, uh, Alex is an interesting character. He's ethnically Russian, born and raised in the Ukraine. 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:54.000 G8EMY/W5: got, uh, married a Jewish girl, moved to Israel, became an Israeli citizen when he stepped off the plane, accepted a job in Canada, and has been working as a spook up in your area. 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.000 Barry VE4MA: Wow. 00:22:54.000 --> 00:23:01.000 G8EMY/W5: So he's up in Canada and, uh, he got back, I've been doing specialized antennas for him for a while. 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:09.000 G8EMY/W5: He got back with me and said, uh, Kent, I've got some buddies over there, and we need antennas to do this, this, and this, and this. I can do that. 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:16.000 G8EMY/W5: And that's been a couple years, gee whiz. 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:29.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, well, they certainly, uh, they certainly have been very, uh, innovative in responding to the Russians. 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:38.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, it's interesting that they've had to go to fiber optic fiber-controlled drones, because the EM space has been so jammed. He said. 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:39.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:42.000 G8EMY/W5: He said the battlefields now look like spider webs. 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.000 G8EMY/W5: I did send you a picture of that tank inside a tank. 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:56.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, welcome to, uh, ways to get around a Javelin missile with its dual warheads. 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.000 Barry VE4MA: So I see we got Al there. 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.000 G8EMY/W5: Yep. Oh! And somebody else from up north. 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, done. 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:17.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, Don is sending me all that nice weather. 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.000 G8EMY/W5: Oh, he's above you, huh? 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:20.000 Don VE6HQ: Oh… 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:26.000 Don VE6HQ: Oh, Barry, I wish I could, you know, wish I wasn't, but uh… we're out there. 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:34.000 Don VE6HQ: Myself, my wife were out shoveling snow here just a few minutes ago, and wow, it's brutal, it's brutal, but it's supposed to warm up tomorrow. 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:38.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, we're gonna… we're supposed to get that Tuesday for one day. 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:36.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh… 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:42.000 G8EMY/W5: Snow! Snow, that's that stuff that comes on Christmas cards? 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:40.000 Don VE6HQ: Okay. 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:46.000 Don VE6HQ: Yeah, yeah, partially correct. 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:51.000 Don VE6HQ: Listen, I've got to just run upstairs and get a cup of coffee. I'll be right back, gentlemen. 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:54.000 Barry VE4MA: Sounds good. 00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:57.000 Barry VE4MA: So, how's it going there, Al? 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.000 Al W5LUA: Doing okay, are you copying me okay? 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.000 Barry VE4MA: Roger, Roger! 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:05.000 Al W5LUA: Hey, I'm on, uh, my cell phone here. 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.000 Al W5LUA: And, um… 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, that's not too bad. 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:13.000 Al W5LUA: Yeah, I could give you some video over the beach. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:15.000 Barry VE4MA: Well, sure, why not? 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:21.000 Al W5LUA: Let's see if video… let's see if video works here, let's see, start video. 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:19.000 G8EMY/W5: So we're… 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, Al, where are you vacationing? 00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:27.000 Al W5LUA: Um, Waikiki. 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.000 G8EMY/W5: Wow! 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:31.000 David - KG5EIU TX: That's nice. 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:35.000 Al W5LUA: Yeah, let me give you a shot here. It'll be through the window, but… 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:38.000 G8EMY/W5: So you're now a KH6? 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.000 Al W5LUA: Yep. 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:43.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Aloha! 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:47.000 G8EMY/W5: Actually, Hanawani would be more appropriate. 00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:55.000 Barry VE4MA: Wow. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000 Al W5LUA: I don't know if you can see the beach or not. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:58.000 Barry VE4MA: Sure can, that looks great. 00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Wonderful. 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:05.000 Al W5LUA: Yeah, it… yeah, it's… it's nice, uh… temperature doesn't burn much, but… 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:09.000 Barry VE4MA: No, while being by the water. 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:14.000 Al W5LUA: You haven't even tried the water yet, we've been, uh… 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.000 Al W5LUA: driving around Oahu. 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:22.000 Al W5LUA: I'm gonna turn the video off here, stop video. 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:25.000 Al W5LUA: Hey, Barry, uh… 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:28.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I don't know what the water's like there, but it seems to be, uh… 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:33.000 Barry VE4MA: Uh, taking quite a risk to go wading in the water nowadays. 00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:36.000 Al W5LUA: Oh, with undercurrent? 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:39.000 Barry VE4MA: Well, that are critters. 00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:45.000 Al W5LUA: Oh, there are a lot of people out there on surfboards. A lot of people. 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:52.000 Al W5LUA: In fact, I don't… some of these must be somewhat powered just to get out to where the waves are, because. 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:59.000 Al W5LUA: I've seen them just stand on it and go out to sea, if you will, just so they can ride them in, so they must have some sort of. 00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:03.000 Al W5LUA: Self-propelled, uh, surfboard. 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:05.000 Al W5LUA: At least to get out, but… 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:09.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, wouldn't surprise me, I mean, you know, look at all the electric bikes that are around now, and… 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.000 Barry VE4MA: And that would be a nice application. 00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:22.000 Al W5LUA: Yeah, because you've got to work at it, or you probably have to work at it to, uh, to go against the, uh, the current, you know, they get out there, they ride the waves, but… 00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:25.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I'm sure. 00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:31.000 Al W5LUA: Hey, a question for you. Was the 24GB EME activity this month, or is it next month? 00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:33.000 Barry VE4MA: Well, I was thinking January. 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.000 Al W5LUA: Okay. 00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:40.000 Barry VE4MA: But there was a little bit of activity. It'll show up in the newsletter report, uh… 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:45.000 Barry VE4MA: WA6PY was on, and uh… some of the JAs, and uh… 00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:48.000 Barry VE4MA: Some of the Italian stations, and… 00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:52.000 Barry VE4MA: And it was no special event, so… 00:27:54.000 --> 00:28:02.000 Al W5LUA: Alright, well, I need to… I gotta pull down the whole 24GB TR relay assembly and tear the 24GB waveguide relay apart. 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:09.000 Al W5LUA: And figure out why it's, um… I mean, I know I digested some bugs years ago. 00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:11.000 Al W5LUA: But I can't keep it cleaned out. 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.000 Al W5LUA: So, I'll just have to take it apart. 00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:18.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:31.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I saw that DU3T has got some waveguide switches, uh, available there. I never saw a price for them, but… and I'm not sure what the specs are like, but… 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:22.000 Al W5LUA: Just curious. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:39.000 Al W5LUA: Yeah, I was wondering about that, because they sold them all, uh, but I think initially they were, like, 350 US dollars. 00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:42.000 Al W5LUA: I'm guessing, from what I remember. 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. Oh, yeah. 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:46.000 Al W5LUA: And I would think he'd make a nice product, but I… 00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:53.000 Al W5LUA: Gotcha, I only spent $15 at MHz Electronics for this WR42 waveguide relay. 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:56.000 Barry VE4MA: That must have been before eBay. 00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.000 Al W5LUA: Yeah, yeah, probably was, and… 00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:03.000 Al W5LUA: That's what we used to make our first EME contact. 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:07.000 Al W5LUA: So… 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:16.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, well, I had a transfer… well, I guess they're quite often transfers, I guess, but uh… 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:23.000 Barry VE4MA: I had a transfer switch, and it used to take a while to get over. It was kind of a motorized apparatus. 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:29.000 Barry VE4MA: So I could never test for echoes, and I finally got a… a fast switch, so… 00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:31.000 Barry VE4MA: Still haven't tested for echoes, but… 00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:38.000 G8EMY/W5: That sounds like the one I had, which was a motorized tray that slid back and forth in there. 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:40.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:48.000 G8EMY/W5: And uh… when I would work out terrestrially on it, it was like, no, no, no, no, don't come back to me so quickly, the tray hasn't moved all the way over yet. 00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.000 Al W5LUA: Yeah, it's still the way my TWT is on transmit. 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:54.000 G8EMY/W5: That's great. 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:04.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, it was… I was running it on 12 volts instead of 28 volts, so it didn't slide too quickly. 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:00.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:13.000 Barry VE4MA: I know Tony Cade ZR has got exactly the same switch assembly that I have. 00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:17.000 Barry VE4MA: had… well, I haven't, but not using it. 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:19.000 Al W5LUA: Hmm. 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:23.000 Barry VE4MA: I was thinking that might be good to use for a preamp on top of the tower or something, but… 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:35.000 G8EMY/W5: We may be able to talk MOTS into coming up with some WR42 waveguide switches. He's making stuff that's virtually that complex. I mean, he's got a complete. 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.000 G8EMY/W5: NC, uh, building center in his garage. 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.000 Al W5LUA: Yeah, he's quite talented. 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:52.000 G8EMY/W5: And he's had 2 heart attacks and he currently has 11 stents and hasn't given up vaping. 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh my god. 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:56.000 Al W5LUA: Hmm. 00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:01.000 Don VE6HQ: Well, good for him, good, good for him. You know, you're… gentlemen, you're talking about all this hardware, but I'm… 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:10.000 Don VE6HQ: shocked myself, uh, here, uh, not electrically, but, uh, with software, which I know nothing about. 00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:15.000 Don VE6HQ: A colleague, uh, gave me… gave me… sent me a… 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:21.000 Don VE6HQ: An old ICOM PWM amplifier says, this doesn't work, fix it. 00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:31.000 Don VE6HQ: And everything is burned out, and so what I undertook, and I should have known better, is to build a software interface using JavaScript and C++. 00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:37.000 Don VE6HQ: Now, Barry, I know nothing, nothing about JavaScript and C++. I mean. 00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:46.000 Don VE6HQ: Uh, 50 years ago at university, I learned Fortran 4 with what for, and have not used it at all in my entire career. 00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:49.000 Don VE6HQ: In the, uh, energy sector. 00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:51.000 Don VE6HQ: And, uh… 00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:53.000 Al W5LUA: No video. 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:59.000 Don VE6HQ: It is true, gentlemen. You're never too old to learn new skills. 00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:11.000 Don VE6HQ: And, you know, my expertise was, you know, building 4CX250 amplifiers in a coaxial cavity, you know, 50 years ago, and I haven't progressed from that. 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:27.000 Don VE6HQ: But I have actually built the software that will remotely control, through a web browser, this amplifier, and have gauges, just like you see, you know, power, and measure current, and actuate relays. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:33.000 Don VE6HQ: And I'm thinking, like, how the heck did I do this? And, and, and uh… 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:40.000 Barry VE4MA: There must be something in the water out there, because between you and Skip V6BGT… 00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:43.000 Don VE6HQ: Oh, I… no, don't… I would never even… 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:54.000 Don VE6HQ: Barry, uh, try to put myself close to Skip and his expertise in building knowledge. I mean, I'm just a novice on that. But, you know. 00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:03.000 Don VE6HQ: I, I guess as we, as I, as I age, and that it's always great to, to, to try new. 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:08.000 Don VE6HQ: Things, and that's what's so great about this hobby that we're in, amateur radio. 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:16.000 Don VE6HQ: It's an experimental science, and the work that you and all the rest of the people at NTS… NTMS do. 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:37.000 Don VE6HQ: is… is really inspiring, and it inspires me, you know? I can't… I can't put up, you know, a 10-meter dish in my backyard. There's just, you know, I'm not Skipauley, you know? But there's things we can do instead, and I… I think that's great. Anyways, I've spoken enough. 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:48.000 Al W5LUA: Hey, Don, uh, this is Al. I've got an ICPW1 that I, uh, made an idiotic move on and transmitted into, uh. 00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:53.000 Al W5LUA: Uh, the non-resident antenna, and it gave me an unbalanced. 00:33:53.000 --> 00:34:01.000 Al W5LUA: Uh, indication, so I think that means I blew out one pallet, maybe 2 pallets with those, uh, 150s in it. 00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:07.000 Al W5LUA: So I may have to talk to you about, uh, working those. It is such a battleship, the way it's put together. 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:13.000 G8EMY/W5: Al, what's the frequency limit on a 2.92mm connector? 00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:12.000 Don VE6HQ: Yep. 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.000 Al W5LUA: Well, hold on a second, I was waiting for Don to make a comment. 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:28.000 Don VE6HQ: Well, uh, yeah, Al, you know, I didn't tell you the rest of the story, uh, why, and that, you know, about taking a look at things. It was interesting, when I started looking at this amplifier. 00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:36.000 Don VE6HQ: the, the control head, the remote was, was burned out, so I… so another colleague in Edmonton. 00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:47.000 Don VE6HQ: had the same amplifier, and I asked him if I could borrow the control head, just for troubleshooting. You know, nowadays, you know, if a part problem, you just change out to a working unit, and. 00:34:47.000 --> 00:35:02.000 Don VE6HQ: And, you know, that's the, you know, when they fix your car type of scenario, or anything these days. So he said, sure, you can, you can borrow the control head, but, uh, you might as well take the whole amplifier, too, because it does work, and see if you can fix it. 00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:13.000 Don VE6HQ: So I started off with two of these Icon PW1s to repair. Neither worked. And I thought, how did I get myself into this mess? 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:14.000 Al W5LUA: Hmm. 00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:16.000 Don VE6HQ: Be careful what you ask me to do, go ahead. 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:26.000 Al W5LUA: Okay. Well, yeah, I decided to stick it aside, and I bought a PGXL amplifier, which is really nice, but I hated that I… 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:36.000 Al W5LUA: did something stupid with the PW1, because it's really nice with the remote head on that thing, and just keep that on the operating position, and put the amplifier, you know, down on the floor. 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:42.000 Al W5LUA: But, um, I do have the manual, um, uh, the tech manual for it. 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:47.000 Al W5LUA: Um, uh, local works for ICOM. 00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:53.000 Al W5LUA: And, um… God, I can't remember his name. I'm sorry, I just saw him a few weeks ago. 00:35:53.000 --> 00:36:01.000 Al W5LUA: But anyway, I just need to get around to it there. Appreciate your comments. Uh, Kent, I think it's 40 GHz for a 2.9. 00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:03.000 G8EMY/W5: I thought it went higher than that. 00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:12.000 Al W5LUA: According to Lothar, he says that some of them are specced higher than that, just like, you know, some SMAs will work fine at 24. 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:06.000 Barry VE4MA: No, that's… 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.000 G8EMY/W5: Okay, well… 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:21.000 Don VE6HQ: Well, Al, just to finish up, and then I'll, you know, go QRT there, the… 00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000 G8EMY/W5: Oops. 00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:27.000 Don VE6HQ: You know, when I was involved in these amplifiers, and that PW1. 00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:26.000 G8EMY/W5: There we go. There we go. 00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:37.000 Don VE6HQ: Oh, it has a lot of baggage. You know, I got the… all the tech manuals and everything required to pull this thing apart, nut by nut. 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:30.000 G8EMY/W5: There we go. 00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:53.000 Don VE6HQ: I was… you know, now, given that amplifier's over 25 years old, but it… it has a lot of issues with that amplifier, from the power supply to the switching to the logic. I mean, it's a great amplifier. 00:36:53.000 --> 00:37:06.000 Don VE6HQ: But they don't build them like that anymore. The power supply is an absolute disaster. I mean, like, who in ICOM came up with this idea to design a power supply this way? 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:58.000 Al W5LUA: Hmm. 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:11.000 Don VE6HQ: And, of course, the last 25 years, people have found out it, it… 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:18.000 Don VE6HQ: It likes to fail, and plus components in it, Al. So, I mean, it's a beautiful-looking machine. 00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:15.000 Al W5LUA: Hmm. 00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:32.000 Don VE6HQ: But it's sort of like a Lamborghini. It's like, when something goes wrong, it's, it, it, uh… well, the one, the power supply fail, took out all the circuit breakers and also hammered the, uh… 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:49.000 Don VE6HQ: main breakers in the electrical box that it was plugged into, right at the main power panel of the QTH. So, they put devices that are not poorly rated right across the mains, and when it failed. 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:42.000 Al W5LUA: Hmm. 00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:54.000 Don VE6HQ: Which it does, uh, you know, it's well documented, uh, you got problems. 00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:57.000 Don VE6HQ: Anyways, enough. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:07.000 Al W5LUA: Yeah, that's, uh… I wouldn't be looking forward to that. I was kind of hoping it might be a more simpler solution, and it might be. My power supply issues may be something of the future. 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:10.000 Al W5LUA: But appreciate your insight, Don. 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:12.000 Don VE6HQ: Okay, well, carry on, gentlemen. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.000 G8EMY/W5: What voltage does that power supply generate? 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:25.000 Don VE6HQ: Well, it… it… all this stuff is 48 volt nominal voltage for the… what are… what are the MRF150s, whatever… I shouldn't know all this stuff, I… 00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:28.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, 150s, or 150 series. 00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:27.000 Don VE6HQ: Yeah. 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:38.000 Don VE6HQ: Yeah, and you know, it's, it's a, it's a great amplifier. Okay, I gotta, I gotta take this message, I'll just turn it back to you guys. 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:49.000 Barry VE4MA: Can't… I can't remember if I got one of those boards from you or not. 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:54.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, it's also getting it with the proper connector that'll go that high. 00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.000 G8EMY/W5: But if you need those, I've got plenty. 00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:59.000 Barry VE4MA: Yes, I'm sure. 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:04.000 G8EMY/W5: Minimum, minimum order, and they come in sheets about, uh… 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.000 G8EMY/W5: Well, I'll show you in a moment. 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:21.000 Al W5LUA: Yeah, I'm gonna have to leave here shortly to, uh, go down to breakfast, but I'll maybe catch you guys on the flip side, depending on how long the meeting is. 00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:25.000 Barry VE4MA: Sounds good, Al, good to see you on here, anyway. 00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:29.000 Al W5LUA: Yep, glad to show you the beach. 00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:30.000 Barry VE4MA: Yes. 00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.000 Barry VE4MA: Makes me feel warm already. 00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:38.000 Al W5LUA: Alright. 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:42.000 Al W5LUA: Well, happy holidays to all. 00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:45.000 Barry VE4MA: You betcha. How long are you there? 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.000 Al W5LUA: Oh. 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:48.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, very minimum order was 8 sheets. 00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:50.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh my god. 00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.000 G8EMY/W5: I got plenty. 00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:58.000 Al W5LUA: Yeah, we'll… we're gonna leave tomorrow and be home on, uh, Monday morning. 00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, boy. Okay. 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.000 Al W5LUA: It's an 8-hour flight, so it's not bad. 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.000 Barry VE4MA: Avoid the Christmas rush. 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:10.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, Barry, I went through 5,000 PC boards last year. 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:16.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, they, uh, the PC board house must know you pretty well. 00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:22.000 G8EMY/W5: That they do. I'm one of the few guys who's still using 274D Gerbers. 00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:27.000 G8EMY/W5: Not the new 274X. 00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:26.000 Al W5LUA: You might be ready. 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:45.000 Barry VE4MA: Kent, do you know if, uh, somewhere there's actually a documented, uh, plot of the pattern out of those, uh. 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:48.000 Barry VE4MA: Those kind of antennas? 00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:52.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, very similar to a 3-element Yagi, maybe a 4-element. 00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:54.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, okay. 00:40:54.000 --> 00:41:02.000 G8EMY/W5: I have 1 guy who's insisting that the pattern is omnidirectional, and I go, no, because they make a reasonably decent little dish feed. 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:06.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I was wondering what F2D they'd be good for. 00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:11.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, probably about a point… probably about a .3, maybe a .25. 00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:09.000 Barry VE4MA: Best. 00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:13.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh. Oh, okay. 00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:18.000 G8EMY/W5: But there's a lot of things you can do to increase the gain if you make them longer. 00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:23.000 G8EMY/W5: More gentle taper, uh, they end up with a narrower pattern. 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:22.000 Barry VE4MA: Alright. 00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:26.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, and it's really easy to put a lens in front of them. 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:28.000 Barry VE4MA: Hmm. 00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:34.000 G8EMY/W5: You can just put a little diamond-shaped piece of Teflon or Teflon PC board in front of it. 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:38.000 G8EMY/W5: And, uh, change the pattern to about anything you want. 00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:47.000 G8EMY/W5: I gather some pictures of the Sanford dish, the big one they've got out in California. 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:49.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:55.000 G8EMY/W5: And they used a ridged horn as its feed. I call this a ridged horn without the horn. 00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:54.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. 00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:57.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:06.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I never saw the feed for the Stanford dish, but uh… I know the dish. 00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:12.000 G8EMY/W5: I can send… I can send you photos. I took photos I took when I was out there, uh, when we had mud out there. 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:19.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, that must… that must be a big horn. 00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.000 G8EMY/W5: Yes. 00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:23.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh… it all depends on how low in frequency you're going. 00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:28.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, well, I didn't think that was a particularly high frequency dish, but… 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:34.000 G8EMY/W5: I've actually done a vitality feed for a military dish. 00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:41.000 G8EMY/W5: goes on a P3 Orion aircraft. 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:42.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:52.000 G8EMY/W5: And it so happens I have the prototype right here, I think. 00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:58.000 G8EMY/W5: Oh, I also have those now in laser cut brass. 00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:01.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, nice. 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:09.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, yes, try and burn that one up. And here's the one that was made for the, uh, aircraft. This is the prototype. 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:11.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, wow. 00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:14.000 G8EMY/W5: Water jet cut brass. 00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:17.000 G8EMY/W5: This goes down to 400 megs. 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:30.000 G8EMY/W5: And it's heavy. And they had it mounted in the dish at a 45 degree angle, because it was used in an ELIT application, and now it's vertical and horizontal polarization. 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.000 Barry VE4MA: Right. 00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:39.000 Barry VE4MA: So, is there any criticality to the thickness of those? 00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:43.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, I'm sure it does at the upper end, but uh… 00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:46.000 G8EMY/W5: Even though this is about… 00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:52.000 G8EMY/W5: About 2 millimeter thick brass. That was not a consideration for as high as this one's used. 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:59.000 G8EMY/W5: Of course, on the PC boards, the copper is, you know, you almost measure it in angstroms. 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:02.000 Barry VE4MA: Yes. 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:15.000 Don VE6HQ: Well, Barry, your comment about the water, you can judge that. I put a snapshot or screenshot of what the. 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:21.000 Don VE6HQ: The GUI looks like in the chat, so you can determine, uh… 00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:25.000 Don VE6HQ: Uh, you know, the next, uh… 00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:28.000 Don VE6HQ: Update. 00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:33.000 Don VE6HQ: I should have gave the whole project to Skip, and a heck of a lot easier. 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:38.000 Barry VE4MA: Let's see, where are we here? 00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:45.000 David - KG5EIU TX: I'm running the PW2 using the ICOM app, looks very similar. 00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:53.000 Don VE6HQ: Well, I'm not smart enough to really create anything. I just copy, you know, from others, and… 00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:58.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Well, you just… you just fire up ChatGPT and have ChatGPT or one of the LLMs build you the app. 00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:03.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. You don't have to know anything anymore, you just ask the… 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:02.000 Don VE6HQ: Yeah. 00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:05.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. 00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:07.000 Don VE6HQ: There you go. There you go. 00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:11.000 G8EMY/W5: Artificial intelligence versus natural stupidity. 00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.000 Don VE6HQ: Yeah, that's it. 00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.000 David - KG5EIU TX: There you go. 00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:28.000 Barry VE4MA: We are, oh yeah. 00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:31.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, looks good. 00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:42.000 Don VE6HQ: Yeah, you know, because that… everything is going this way. Now, with the radios that you… you control. Now, remember, it's all… this is HF. The nice thing about this… 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:51.000 Don VE6HQ: is it's given me enough confidence, so when I'm building, you know, other projects, I can recycle the code to do this, you know? 00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:53.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. 00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:57.000 Don VE6HQ: So when… so when I got my 70 centimeter amplifier, I can… I can use, basically. 00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:09.000 Don VE6HQ: the code is a framework and to build on. So, you know, it's all part of that learning in old age for me. 00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:15.000 Barry VE4MA: So how do you, how do you interface the, uh, sensors, we'll call them, into the, uh… 00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.000 Barry VE4MA: Into the processor power there. 00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:24.000 Don VE6HQ: Well, what it is, it's all built on an Arduino R4. 00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:32.000 Don VE6HQ: Okay, that, that, that, uh, you know, you can put a, uh, a… and it has some analog pins on it. 00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:33.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, yeah. 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:43.000 Don VE6HQ: That'll, you know, for analog-to-digital conversion, and so all you do is you give it a voltage, and then you scale, you know, you scale the voltage in the software, and you say now, and then you. 00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:51.000 Don VE6HQ: Presented on the gauges and on the dials, and then the same with temperature or anything else that you want to measure, you know, you just… 00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:58.000 Don VE6HQ: You know, scale it inside the software, give it a gain, an offset, and then say, okay, present. 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:06.000 Don VE6HQ: You know, forward power, present reflective power, present current, whatever you, you know, and you just pull up the display. 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.000 Barry VE4MA: Right. 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:12.000 Barry VE4MA: So, how many analog inputs can you put on there, or how do you multiplex them, or… 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:19.000 Don VE6HQ: Uh, well, they've got, you know, this is the one great thing about technology. You can buy now. 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:32.000 Don VE6HQ: you know, a 24-channel analog-to-digital converter that works with I2C protocol, which is the protocol a lot of this… these little microprocessors have, and so you could have as many channels. 00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:40.000 Don VE6HQ: That you could possibly desire all multiplexed into… into your little microprocessor, and then… 00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:49.000 Don VE6HQ: Display, put warnings, put messages, uh, you know, whatever you want, and it, it, it's really. 00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:57.000 Don VE6HQ: Enlightening to me to see how inexpensive the hardware is and how much you can do with it, you know, um… 00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:06.000 Don VE6HQ: These little microprocessors, and so it's been… it's been a fun… the reason is, you know, the original. 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:12.000 Don VE6HQ: PW1 had a little microprocessor to do all the band changing, and that was all burned out. 00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:18.000 Don VE6HQ: And you can't buy the parts anymore, or at least I couldn't find them. And so, I think, what the heck am I gonna do? 00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:23.000 Don VE6HQ: You know, I can turn the thing on, but I can't change bands, and all the… all the… 00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:32.000 Don VE6HQ: You know, and I was… I'm not good enough anymore to actually troubleshoot right down to the component with these tiny little parts that I can hardly see. 00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:44.000 Don VE6HQ: I mean, a big 8877, no problem, and it chokes, but this, this, this stuff, no way. I mean, I, I just, uh, you know, uh, I can't work on it. 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:48.000 Barry VE4MA: Understand. Yeah, that's… that's very nice. 00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:51.000 Barry VE4MA: It, uh… 00:48:51.000 --> 00:49:02.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I've got a 432 amplifier project that I could stand to use this sort of technology in, but this looks like a whole other project, so, like… 00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:14.000 Don VE6HQ: Oh, if you want something to keep you busy during the cold winter nights in, in, uh, either Alberta or in Manitoba. 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:23.000 Don VE6HQ: Learn code, because, you know, some days it takes me… it took me a day and a half just to put in the clock time. 00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:25.000 Don VE6HQ: on this interface. 00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:28.000 Don VE6HQ: You know, and I thought, well, this should be easy. 00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:35.000 Barry VE4MA: Well, I think the, uh, asking AI to do the code sounds like a good plan. 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:38.000 Don VE6HQ: Uh, yeah, I'm gonna… I'm gonna do… I'm gonna go that route. 00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:37.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Okay. 00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:47.000 David - KG5EIU TX: You can, you can, you can get that going. Mike, AI5QK, he's written whole apps and published them in the App Store in less than a week. 00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:52.000 David - KG5EIU TX: He doesn't know how to code in the Apple, you know, developer's kit. 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:57.000 David - KG5EIU TX: It's amazing, it's really amazing what you can do with the AI to do coding like that. 00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.000 Don VE6HQ: Yeah. 00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I heard recently, uh… 00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:09.000 Barry VE4MA: A bit of a story about, uh, how, how young coders are having a tough time finding a job because AI is replacing them. 00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:13.000 Don VE6HQ: Well, yeah. 00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:18.000 Barry VE4MA: You know, the people with experience can move up… move up the ladder, but the people at the bottom can't get started. 00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:23.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, I would say starting out now as a coder, boy, you're… you're really… 00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:28.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Paddling hard just because of the whole, I mean, it's. 00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:31.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Really amazing what you can get. 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:35.000 David - KG5EIU TX: AI to do for you from a coding level. 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:40.000 David - KG5EIU TX: And, you know, good… good code, right? It's… 00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:41.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:43.000 David - KG5EIU TX: It's using its smarts to build good code, so… 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:48.000 Barry VE4MA: Well, I've heard other people always say some, sometimes there's garbage in there and you have to recognize it. 00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:50.000 Barry VE4MA: Be able to recognize it. 00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:56.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, you gotta, I mean, you still gotta know what you're doing a little bit, right? And, and look at the flow and. 00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:56.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:50:56.000 --> 00:51:00.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Make sure, like you said, they're not putting garbage in there, but um… 00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:05.000 David - KG5EIU TX: It seems like every month it gets better and better, right? 00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:07.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah. 00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:16.000 Don VE6HQ: Yeah, I… David, yeah, that's why I wanted to learn a little bit about the code, and then I could probably be more productive. 00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:22.000 Don VE6HQ: you know, using AI, because if you start out with zero, how do you know even where to start, to ask? I mean… 00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:29.000 Don VE6HQ: You know, so… but, but, uh, I sure there's a good plan moving forward as I… 00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:33.000 Don VE6HQ: you know, whatever, you know, enhances, which I'm sure what I'm gonna do. 00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:39.000 Barry VE4MA: We're coming up to the witching hour. Is Jim here somewhere? 00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:41.000 Barry VE4MA: Or who's running the show today? 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: No, I'm here. 00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:47.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh, okay. 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, we're coming up on the time. 00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:57.000 Barry VE4MA: Anyway, good chatting with you guys today. 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:04.000 Barry VE4MA: If I didn't have so many projects to do, I'd be tempted, but… 00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.000 Barry VE4MA: Gotta work on the bucket list, you know, running out of time. 00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:23.000 Barry VE4MA: Good to see you, Jim. 00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Good to see you too, Barry. 00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Alright, it's about that time. 00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You just have to remind myself to start the recording. 00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the way you do that, for whoever, um, might need to know… 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Is you record to your local computer? 00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, to avoid the bandwidth to… back to Zoom. 00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then you process it on your own. 00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: own laptop. 00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, welcome, everybody. 00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And… you're looking at the… 00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: View from the parking garage at, uh, John Peter Smith Hospital. 00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: in Fort Worth, last Saturday. 00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: For our microwave activity date, and um… we were souped in. 00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So there was a couple of cell towers within a quarter mile that are not visible. 00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: In this picture. 00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It was about 10 AM. 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, the fog burned off, and… 00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We had better visibility within about an hour or two, and had a great activity date. 00:54:51.000 --> 00:55:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is a good place to work from as a rover. It has public access. You can go all the way up to the 5th or 6th level. 00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, it's not great when it's windy, but there are some covered areas where you can loop some. 00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Bungee cords, or other… you can get tethered. 00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: To the concrete pillars. 00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So this is what we've got today. I had asked for presentations. 00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I know people are busy, and I did not get any submissions, so we're gonna do some replays from previous… previously recorded presentations. 00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, but I'll start off sharing some, uh, experience I have with microwave filters. 00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'm not sure you'll learn anything, although I… 00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Was surprised about a couple things along the journey, uh, and I'm sure it's just starting, but, um, when I think about. 00:55:54.000 --> 00:56:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Some of the folks that are here in the audience, and their 50-year experience that they've had, or 60. 00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I realized that, you know, I'm like skipping a rock across the pond with my experience where. 00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: They've paved the way, um, you know, for decades. 00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, and I come across their names as I learn what I learned. 00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, thank you for that, and I hope I don't bore you with what I'm going to present. But then we'll listen to Al again. He just did this presentation. 00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: at Central States, and also, uh… 00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: presented it here at NTMS on August 9th, and then Greg had a… 00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 3rd generation 10GHz transfer. I thought it was interesting enough to replay back in March. 00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then we'll go on with the other things that we do. 00:56:52.000 --> 00:57:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, without any delay, I'll get the, uh, presentation I've got going. 00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Using microwave filters. 00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, some filters that I have a little bit of experience with that I want to talk about are. 00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Those created from component, surface mount devices. 00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, strip line filters… 00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Hairpin filters. 00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Waveguide filters… 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and pipe cap. 00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So the first thing that comes to mind, and as I was putting this together, is that on the Wave Lab control board. 00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We have a 2.45. 00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: uh, center frequency SMD, and it's in a 1008 size. 00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this has good characteristics, as you can see. 00:57:56.000 --> 00:58:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, with the transmission profile and the return loss on the right side. 00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:03.000 Bob N5BRG: Hey, Jim. 00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:06.000 Barry VE4MA: Jim, I'm not seeing the slides advance beyond the agenda. 00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay, thank you for letting me know that. 00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That means I need to do a better job of sharing. 00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: you can either share everything on your desktop, or you can share individual windows, and so I've made that mistake. 00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You should see the title slide now. 00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:33.000 Barry VE4MA: Got it. Now… 00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:39.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, we see the title slide, yep, using microwave filters. 00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay, and then here's the review of the bullet points, components, strip line, hairpin. 00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:48.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Okay. 00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Waveguide and pipe cap. 00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And there are many others, or combinations thereof. 00:58:55.000 --> 00:59:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Here is the Murata datasheet, and this is a SMD part that's on the Wavelab control board. 00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The, uh, plots on the right side, uh, show us, uh, the transmission profile, uh. 00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the insertion loss. 00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'm sorry, the, uh, the return loss. 00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You can see on the bottom table that the center is 2450 with a 50MHz bandwidth. 00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, it says about 2 dB insertion loss in the bandwidth, and then 43 dB. 00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Down minimum on these certain skirt, uh, frequency locations. 00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So it fit perfectly in the, um, wave lab. Uh, to note one thing, there was a… 00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Directional input mark over here on the left, where my mouse is. 00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And we found that it didn't make any difference which way you oriented this filter. 01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's in the, um, path right here, it's the schematic, and the actual physical realization down here on the bottom. So on the bottom, U2 is the mixer. 01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The coupling caps are C9 and C10. The TR switch that's on the far right is. 01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: this black, uh, six-legged SMD right here. 01:00:29.000 --> 01:00:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, the filters in between the mixer and the TR switch that will branch between transmit and receive to the module. 01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So the filters in play whether the signal is going from right to left, which would be transmit. 01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Or from Wright. 01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I said that wrong, didn't I? From left to right would be the transmit signal, and right to left would be the receive signal, so the filter is used both. 01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: For directions. 01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, Rata has a number of other filters. I've looked through the list, as I needed some for some modifications to the. 01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um… 01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: XN, X-Ray, Nancy, XN module. 01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, and they had what I was looking for, so there's, you know, here's a component SMD with 2 dB insertion loss that. 01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Could be used in the low microwave area, if you consider 2.3 or 2.4. 01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: To be low microwave. 01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, this little assembly came up at Vancouver when we were up there. 01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, what's it getting to be? About a year and a half ago? 01:01:56.000 --> 01:02:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, they had implemented this board for Pluto. 01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, software design, radio, defined radio, and it's two RF switches. 01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: With a bunch of, uh, SMD filters in between. 01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you can see the part numbers down here on the bottom. 01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, for the first 3 bands. 01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 1296, 2304, and 3446. 01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I don't know why that says 3446, but that's the way it was printed in the, um… 01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: proceedings, it's fairly acceptable insertion laws, 5 dB, 5 dB, and 7 dB. 01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And… but when you get to 5G and 10 gig, it's… it's getting out of hand with 15 and 20 dB. 01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Anyway, this fellow had put together this board in, um… 01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: ordered the parts. I think he said the little, uh, SMD… 01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Filters were around $6 a piece. 01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: There's one wire here for a net error in the schematic. 01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then if we look at Amazon today, there is an actual filter that looks very much like what we saw a year and a half ago. 01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's called the new ELEC filter. 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it's lower in frequency, uh, covering 2 meters through 23 centimeters. The schematic looks very much like. 01:03:41.000 --> 01:03:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, what we just saw, except for these biased T's to help supply power to these RF switches. 01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And there is this, in the middle picture, and in the left-hand picture, it looks like a switch that you would flip, you know, turn right or left. 01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: To select, uh, the path for the filter that you want from. 01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: you know, one SMA connector to another. 01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I don't think this would be very useful, but it could be on the bench or in experimentation if. 01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You didn't want to build the thing, and you just wanted to order it. 01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I suspect it's got more, um… 01:04:22.000 --> 01:04:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: lost through, but I did look up this data sheet, and if you can believe the data sheet, it looked pretty good. 01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So I want to talk about strip line filters, um, Demi, uh, down east microwave. 01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: told us at Central States. 01:04:39.000 --> 01:04:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: when was that? Back in July, I think, uh, that they're using strip line filters in a new design. 01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And they mentioned Markey Microwave Strip Line Designer Tool. 01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, I took a look at this back when I came home from, um… 01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Central States. 01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it just kind of died there because it's lower in frequency than where I'm interested at that time anyway. 01:05:07.000 --> 01:05:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But, um, I just clipped a part of their page here so that you could see. 01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, when you design, uh, you specify the order and the type of topology. 01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Over here on the left, this is a Chevy Chev, fifth order. 01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, topology interdigital cutoff frequencies, 1900 and 2100. 01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Ripple, um, parameters… 01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And… it just doesn't. 01:05:38.000 --> 01:05:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: tells you what it is. Now, it doesn't have a exportation where you could turn this into, like, a KICAD file? 01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Or some other PCB. 01:05:52.000 --> 01:06:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: um, recognizable file, but, um, at least the free version doesn't, and this is… this is online. I mean, you can just call this up and… 01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So… start designing with it. 01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: These are really looking like optimized or perfect… perfect, uh… 01:06:11.000 --> 01:06:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: plot down here, with these sharp corners on everything. But anyway, that's a very typical plot for a bandpass filter. 01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oops. 01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Then I go on to hairpin here, um… 01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Hairpin is like it sounds, and my experience has been with this hairpin that's in the. 01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Wavelab module. 01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And on the left side, you see the 3.6 GHz bandpass filter that's in the module. 01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, and the height of that… 01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: set of… 01:06:49.000 --> 01:06:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Traces is 13 millimeters. 01:06:54.000 --> 01:07:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then the next filter in line is on the right side. Those are 4.5 millimeters high. 01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That is a 10.9 GHz bandpass filter. 01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then the transmit chain final BPF right before the PA. It's actually before the PIN attenuator here, but then following the PIN attenuator is the… is the PA. 01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That is 23 GHz, although this one has been modified to 24. 01:07:28.000 --> 01:07:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Those elements are 3.6 millimeters by 1 millimeter. 01:07:34.000 --> 01:07:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, it's greatly magnified. 01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If you look close, you will see where I have cut these filters on each end. 01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: With a scalpel. 01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I wanted to remove 1.5… I'm sorry.15. 01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Millimeters from each side, which is… 01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Not… not scientifically possible with a handheld, uh… 01:08:05.000 --> 01:08:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: scalpel but through messing with it, I was able to get it to tune close or near what I wanted it to tune. 01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Gotta be careful working with an open module because you can see the wire bonding items. 01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: On either side. 01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is really a stripline filter, at least I think it is. 01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The substrate is .3 millimeters thick. 01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it's so thin that when you cut these traces, unless you're very careful, you'll go all the way to the metal. 01:08:51.000 --> 01:08:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And just to point out where these are located, I've flipped up this slide that we've shown before. 01:08:57.000 --> 01:09:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: about what happens inside the Wavelab module. So on the lower left, you have the yellow coming in at 1.8GHz. 01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That is doubled and goes through this 3.6 GHz. That was the one that was 13 millimeters high. 01:09:14.000 --> 01:09:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then coming over, it goes through a tripler, um, and now you're at 10.9. 01:09:20.000 --> 01:09:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then this travels upward, where it goes through this Wilkinson divider. 01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Taking the left branch, uh, goes through this up converter, and into that. 01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, strip line filter… 01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: through the PIN attenuator and into the 2W PA. 01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The receive side's over here on the right side, it comes right in. This part right here is a down converter, it's a very nice part. It's also the same part that's in the… 01:09:49.000 --> 01:09:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, CUNI 24 GHz transverter that they currently sell. 01:09:55.000 --> 01:10:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, um, it is coming in here with the LO on one side, and then pick off the sideband and back out to the control board. 01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The size of this picture on my screen is about 4 times the size of the module in reality. 01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's very small. 01:10:24.000 --> 01:10:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Another hairpin design, and this is a link that's in the document, um… 01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Got several links here. But this is, uh, one of the W1 Gigahertz published, uh, um, papers on hairpin filters, and I believe this is from the KK7. 01:10:40.000 --> 01:10:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: B, maybe, uh, transfer. This is going to be 902, or thereabouts. 01:10:53.000 --> 01:10:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: As far as design tools go, um, there's a MATLAB designer. 01:10:58.000 --> 01:11:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it is free. 01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But, I mean, not just this tool, but anything that would discuss hairpin filters. 01:11:07.000 --> 01:11:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's gonna have a learning curve. 01:11:14.000 --> 01:11:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Was able to pull it up here after creating a free account, um, where they had a drop-down where they asked what… 01:11:23.000 --> 01:11:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: your orientation was, uh, and I said hobbyist, um, so I was able to create an account and open the online. 01:11:32.000 --> 01:11:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: version of MATLAB. 01:11:37.000 --> 01:11:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then there's this guy, Charles, uh, he's got a website here where there is the link, Charles Labs Hairpin Filter Designer. 01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And his approach is to… 01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, prompt you for an element length and a center frequency. 01:11:56.000 --> 01:12:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then he will tell you what the footprint looks like. 01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But I suspect, um, that this might be… since he arrived at the Python. 01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: code through experimentation, it might be only usable within a certain frequency range that he was interested in at the time. 01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Whereas the MATLAB would be more able to consume, um… 01:12:26.000 --> 01:12:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: A variety of frequencies and have the dynamics to bring you to a topology that would be appropriate or close. 01:12:35.000 --> 01:12:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Here's something I have. Um, I have two of these, and I don't know what they are. I think they're a combination between a combine and a cavity, but… 01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: There's a whole bunch of tunable, uh… 01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: slugs on the side, but there's SMA. It's… it's not a waveguide input and output, it's got SMA connectors on each side. 01:12:59.000 --> 01:13:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But reading the label, I see 5.7 slash 5.9. 01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And 30, S11, which might be the return loss. 01:13:12.000 --> 01:13:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Not sure. 01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This one, I think, is definitely a comb line. 01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Here's some waveguide filters that motta Zebra X-ray. 01:13:27.000 --> 01:13:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, tune these up for me… 01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And he tuned them to 24192. The left side has 3 ports. 01:13:37.000 --> 01:13:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this was our initial 24 gig sectoral horn test that we had on the NTMS beacon. So there's ports on each end of the long side. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then there is a port in the middle. 01:13:52.000 --> 01:13:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'm sure this has got an interesting story, but we are using, uh, you can see where Mott's marked IN. 01:13:59.000 --> 01:14:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: On the middle port, and so when we were using it, we were inputting RF here on the in-port and then the out port, uh, the sectoral horn there. 01:14:14.000 --> 01:14:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: On the right side is the actual filter that we ended up using on the beacon, and this one was also tuned. 01:14:23.000 --> 01:14:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, by Mott's… 01:14:32.000 --> 01:14:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And that is the Wavelab module on the other end of this blue. 01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Coax. 01:14:40.000 --> 01:14:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Where we're taking the 2 watts, uh, output and coming through the waveguide to reduce the… 01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Pillow leakage. 01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's pretty prominent on this, uh, wave lab with the, uh, with the control board products that end up in it. 01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And here are, um… 01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We go into the pipe cap discussion. There are some early designs from Kent. 01:15:10.000 --> 01:15:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, and there's a link here to his paper. 01:15:13.000 --> 01:15:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, he was on this so many years ago with, uh, designs and. 01:15:20.000 --> 01:15:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: plots that he had made himself, and then some with the help of Al. 01:15:25.000 --> 01:15:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the technology really hasn't changed. 01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, it just takes a couple of different forms, but it's still the same. 01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: W1 Gigahertz has got a couple papers here that, um… one of the reasons I do these presentations, and. 01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Put the links in here for me. 01:15:53.000 --> 01:16:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Because I'm always calling these things up out of the NTMS website, because I like to stare at this stuff, and I forget where I put the print out, because I usually print it out. 01:16:05.000 --> 01:16:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, and then it's just easier if I'm somewhere that I can't access my printouts. 01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: To pull something up and give a look at it, uh, to be refreshed with what it was that I remember seeing. 01:16:19.000 --> 01:16:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: There's two good papers here, um, one of them has a suggestion about. 01:16:26.000 --> 01:16:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Using capacitor, uh, through whole leads. 01:16:32.000 --> 01:16:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: To actually make the probes that go into the pipe cap on the other side. 01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is how I have built several. 01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you'll see on the left side, there's respect for Kent's approach with the coax input. 01:16:49.000 --> 01:16:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and then also to the left, the PCB input. 01:16:56.000 --> 01:17:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, I like, uh, to review this and look at this, and because I've made several just like this, where. 01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I had to… what I did was I would bend the capacitor leads after I got them to the right length, or thereabouts. 01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So that, uh, I could step away and I knew that the probes were sticking down into the pipe cap. 01:17:22.000 --> 01:17:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: cavity, and then bring the soldering iron to work on, uh, what… on this side, where I had the clear lead. 01:17:31.000 --> 01:17:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But it was never dimensionally perfect, and I don't… I guess there's a point where. 01:17:36.000 --> 01:17:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It doesn't matter, you know, and it's all relative, and you can get close enough in the tuning. 01:17:43.000 --> 01:17:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, to end up where you want to be. 01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And here is the personal beacon and LO multiplier. Built a few of these, or one of these I've built. 01:17:58.000 --> 01:18:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So you can see a reduction going in here from 3.456 with the big pipe cap. 01:18:05.000 --> 01:18:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, is going to clean up what it can. 01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: In that area, so that you end up with, uh… 01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: multiplied, because there's… underneath this board are mimics, so you're going to multiply and have products here out at 10 GHz, which will be further tuned and filtered by the two smaller pipe caps. 01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Which are technically called half-inch pipe caps, but nothing is half-inch. 01:18:34.000 --> 01:18:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's more like 5 eighths of an inch OD. 01:18:38.000 --> 01:18:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But if you've built these, you already know that. 01:18:43.000 --> 01:18:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And so, this link is to the paper regarding how to build these. 01:18:48.000 --> 01:18:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, and it has lots of good information in it. 01:18:53.000 --> 01:18:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, if you look at this PCB board, um, you can trace the inputs on the left side. 01:18:59.000 --> 01:19:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You can see this, uh, ERA2 probably mimic. 01:19:04.000 --> 01:19:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then you'll see… 01:19:07.000 --> 01:19:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Just a spot of solder. Oh, that's the probe. 01:19:13.000 --> 01:19:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the probe width, the distance between these two spots. 01:19:19.000 --> 01:19:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Is wider than these 2 spots as we move to the right. 01:19:24.000 --> 01:19:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And what you're seeing is the underside of what is happening on this top side with these. 01:19:30.000 --> 01:19:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Larger 1 inch pipe cap on the left, and the, quote, half-inch pipe caps to the right. 01:19:39.000 --> 01:19:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But I want to bring your attention to… 01:19:42.000 --> 01:19:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: this SMA connector… 01:19:44.000 --> 01:19:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Right here, that's about a third of the way, or half the way. 01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: On the input? 01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is technically a test port. 01:19:55.000 --> 01:20:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So when you build this, you build this first stage, with the two mimics, the bias circuitry down here. 01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Or up there. 01:20:04.000 --> 01:20:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and you, uh, work to slowly apply power, you know, do the normal DC checks, looks for a short, look for some current draw. 01:20:13.000 --> 01:20:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Ease into it. 01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and look for amplification across this pipe cap through this input down through this point. And this capacitor right here, it's kind of hard to see. 01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: is normally oriented 90 degrees to the right, so that the output of this mimic. 01:20:31.000 --> 01:20:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Is running out this test port. 01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This will permit you, if you'll input, uh, 3456, or at least noise that would cover that. 01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, so, let's say you had a 1 to 5 GHz noise generator, or even less than that, 1 to 4. 01:20:55.000 --> 01:20:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 1 to 3.5. 01:20:58.000 --> 01:21:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Then you would tune this pipe cap while observing the spectrum. 01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: On this test port. 01:21:09.000 --> 01:21:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And that's what this right turn… 01:21:13.000 --> 01:21:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: with the RF signal through the coupling cap when it's installed in this right-hand turn position. 01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then when you get this stage tuned, you move this capacitor back, and then now you can look at how things go through these final 3 stages of amplification across these 2 pipe caps. 01:21:34.000 --> 01:21:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: By observing 10 gig output on this far right port. 01:21:43.000 --> 01:21:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So that comes to play when we talk about our 10 GHz NTMS beacon, because that's what I've done here, is I've taken just the first stage. 01:21:53.000 --> 01:22:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, to clean up the 3.4 signal. It was so bad. 01:22:01.000 --> 01:22:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I mean, by that, I mean, it had so many unwanted signals. 01:22:07.000 --> 01:22:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Speary before or lower than 3.4 and above 3.4 that I just said I'm gonna. 01:22:16.000 --> 01:22:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: convert this one unit that I have into a 3.4. 01:22:21.000 --> 01:22:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: filter. And so, I just took the output from the first stage by moving that capacitor around. 01:22:28.000 --> 01:22:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And that cleaned up things very nicely, and now I was able to go multiply that output without. 01:22:35.000 --> 01:22:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, bringing along all the spiri that was originally there. 01:22:41.000 --> 01:22:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Here's a schematic of that first stage. It's very typical design. 01:22:46.000 --> 01:22:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, this uses the ERA2, I think it says there, but you can select what you need here according to, uh, both the frequency, where you want it to take it. 01:22:58.000 --> 01:23:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the bias requirements. 01:23:01.000 --> 01:23:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, um, there is… I should say, this circuit is also operational up to 5GHz, just fine. 01:23:11.000 --> 01:23:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, uh, filters at 3 and 5 would be okay to filter through this kind of a… 01:23:19.000 --> 01:23:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Application implementation. 01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: At least in my opinion, they would. 01:23:31.000 --> 01:23:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this takes us to the 47 GHz beacon that we have. We have a tri-band beacon. 01:23:37.000 --> 01:23:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It operates at 10, 24, and 47. The 24 was, uh, hardly any problem, but the 10 and 47 have required some. 01:23:49.000 --> 01:23:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: thinking. And, um… 01:23:53.000 --> 01:24:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Tom Williams, WA1 MBA, has created a board that will provide 11.772 GHz filter. I'm going to digress on the next slide and show you why that's needed. 01:24:07.000 --> 01:24:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But really, the story is here. The undesirable image at the LO-435 is 10902. 01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Well, when that's multiplied times 4… well, first of all, 10902 is outside our allocation. 01:24:23.000 --> 01:24:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But when you multiply it times 4, you hit 43608. That's well out of our allocation at 47 to 47.2. 01:24:34.000 --> 01:24:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So this board means to clean all of that up. 01:24:38.000 --> 01:24:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And provide throughput for the 11772 signal to be amplified by the, or multiplied and amplified by the quadrupler. 01:24:48.000 --> 01:24:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So let's digress. 01:24:50.000 --> 01:24:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And talk about the beacon. 01:24:53.000 --> 01:24:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This was our, uh, genesis for the MBA board need. 01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, same IF and LO frequencies I just presented, and this… this board worked, or this RF deck worked. 01:25:07.000 --> 01:25:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It was, uh, WSJTQ65 decodable without any problem. 01:25:14.000 --> 01:25:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But it had, uh, these other spuri that we need… we don't want to go… let go out there. 01:25:24.000 --> 01:25:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, those allocations are government allocations, likely the military. 01:25:29.000 --> 01:25:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it's good they're on our side, but we still don't want to be interfering with them, so the red box defines. 01:25:37.000 --> 01:25:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The components that needed replaced. 01:25:41.000 --> 01:25:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, plus filtered. 01:25:44.000 --> 01:25:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: There's no filter here at all, other than the wave guide, I guess, right here. 01:25:51.000 --> 01:25:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So this is the… on the upper right is the mixer. 01:25:55.000 --> 01:25:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um… 01:25:57.000 --> 01:26:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Which is mixing the… 01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, left to right IF signal coming from an amp through an amp. 01:26:07.000 --> 01:26:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the 11 GHz signal coming off the Cooney LO. 01:26:13.000 --> 01:26:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And what's out coming out here is 11.7 GHz through 2… 01:26:20.000 --> 01:26:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Amplifiers, and then into the quadrupler. 01:26:23.000 --> 01:26:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Times 4. 01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this was yielding the problem. 01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh… LON the LO minus IF. 01:26:37.000 --> 01:26:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, uh, Tom worked on this, we worked on some of this together, but Tom. 01:26:43.000 --> 01:26:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, decided to build a board and it would replace the several individual components that were shown with the red box. 01:26:52.000 --> 01:26:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: that would provide the 11 GHz filtration and amplification, but they require… the board requires 3. 01:26:59.000 --> 01:27:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Half-inch pipe caps, and those are located with these arrows. 01:27:04.000 --> 01:27:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 1, 2, and 3. 01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So his board would replace, if you follow my mouse on the left side. 01:27:14.000 --> 01:27:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The mixer… 01:27:16.000 --> 01:27:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The amplification stages… 01:27:19.000 --> 01:27:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, for the RF side. 01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, the IF is coming in through the mixer, so that's combined. 01:27:29.000 --> 01:27:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Product, and then a final filter, and 2 amplifiers. 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: To provide the RF out. 01:27:39.000 --> 01:27:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The key point here is that this was going to require. 01:27:43.000 --> 01:27:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Our, um, type cap filters. 01:27:48.000 --> 01:27:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I had talked to a couple people about pipe… half-inch pipe cap filters at 11 GHz. 01:27:55.000 --> 01:27:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And they told me it couldn't be done. 01:27:57.000 --> 01:28:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Because the cavity was too big. 01:28:02.000 --> 01:28:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Or that it would be difficult to be done, because the cavity was too big. 01:28:08.000 --> 01:28:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, here was the solution. 01:28:10.000 --> 01:28:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And I'm going to show you how I make podcast filters, and I'm gonna stress that there are many ways to do this, and my way is probably overkill, so don't criticize this, it's just the way I like to do it. 01:28:24.000 --> 01:28:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: First of all, I, uh… 01:28:27.000 --> 01:28:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Get the center hole drilled and tap, and Motts has done that for me. Thank you, Motts. 01:28:27.000 --> 01:28:29.000 G8EMY/W5: You can go to… 01:28:32.000 --> 01:28:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I've tried to drill this hole in the center, and I can't get it in the center. He uses a lathe. 01:28:39.000 --> 01:28:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, a big machine, probably 500 pounds in weight, but it gets them dead on. 01:28:46.000 --> 01:28:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then I get them back. Um, this is me deburring the hole with a drill bit on the inside, just turning it a little bit. 01:28:59.000 --> 01:29:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then I have a fixture, it's a piece of wood, um, and it just captures a full 40 nut down in it. 01:29:08.000 --> 01:29:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'd like to make this out of metal, uh, when I have time. 01:29:13.000 --> 01:29:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But anyway, I just use cyanoacrylic glue to hold it in place. After it gets heated 2 or 3 times, it'll come loose, and I just stick it back down in there and put more super glue on it. 01:29:26.000 --> 01:29:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But this captured nut will hold the pipe cap and its bolt assembly. 01:29:34.000 --> 01:29:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, I screw down the assembly on the wood fixture, and I add flux around the… 01:29:40.000 --> 01:29:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: perimeter. 01:29:42.000 --> 01:29:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Try to get it about even. Excess is better than too little. 01:29:47.000 --> 01:29:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then I lasso the pipe cap with 2 loops of solder. 01:29:54.000 --> 01:30:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And I use a little small flat screwdriver to push the solder down into the flocks. Be sure that that solder's not up on the side of the pipe cap. 01:30:05.000 --> 01:30:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Just kind of squish it down, and I wrap that solder around the edge of the board, which kind of provides a little friction or capture so that it won't. 01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Be loose. 01:30:20.000 --> 01:30:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then I heat at 850 Fahrenheit. The tip of the heat gun is about half an inch. 01:30:30.000 --> 01:30:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: uh… above… well, it's really 5 eighths, I measured it. It's about 5 eighths above the bolt in this picture. So you can see a time lapse of 32 seconds, it's just starting. 01:30:41.000 --> 01:30:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: To show some melting. 01:30:45.000 --> 01:30:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then at 36 cents… 36 seconds, we've got melting going on. 01:30:50.000 --> 01:30:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 45 seconds, a lot of… 01:30:53.000 --> 01:30:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Flo and the lasso ropes, if you will, have separated. 01:30:58.000 --> 01:31:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then, uh, within another 15 seconds or so, I spin that wooden board around and touch up any areas that. 01:31:05.000 --> 01:31:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, are lacking solder. 01:31:09.000 --> 01:31:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this is just preparing the, the pipe cap so that I'm not doing this kind of thing when it's. 01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: clamp to the PCB board. I want it already tinned. 01:31:20.000 --> 01:31:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That's a word that most of us know, so… it… 01:31:25.000 --> 01:31:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This will keep solder from flowing on the inside of the pipe cap. 01:31:30.000 --> 01:31:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it just sticks to the outside, and you've got plenty there. 01:31:35.000 --> 01:31:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: flow to the PC board when you get ready to stick it down to the PC board. 01:31:43.000 --> 01:31:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I think you could use a lot less heat. I haven't experimented with that, but if you figure it goes from. 01:31:50.000 --> 01:31:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: in 10 seconds or 15 seconds, the whole thing is over. If you didn't have it nailed down through the bolt being tight. 01:31:59.000 --> 01:32:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, you wouldn't have time to mess with it when it be in 13 seconds from start to finish. 01:32:05.000 --> 01:32:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, if you take lower heat, it probably would be better to give you more, I guess, control, but there's nothing to do to me. 01:32:16.000 --> 01:32:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You just nail it down and get it over with. It keeps me where I'm only working about an hour on a pipe cab. 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And when it comes time to put the pipe cap to the PC board, there's six and a half dozen different ways to get that done. Here's a picture where I have C-clamped the pipe caps to a W1GHz board. 01:32:40.000 --> 01:32:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, and I'm cleaning up the solder, actually, here, but I want to describe. 01:32:45.000 --> 01:32:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: how this is sandwiched, because it may be some non-intuitive things. First of all, these red, uh, blue C-clamps have a piece of. 01:32:56.000 --> 01:33:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: What do they call it asbestos type, it's not asbestos, but it's asbestos type. 01:33:03.000 --> 01:33:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Material? 01:33:05.000 --> 01:33:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, um… under each of the top of the clamps. 01:33:11.000 --> 01:33:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And… I just did that to try to keep the heat sinking property low. 01:33:18.000 --> 01:33:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Because the heat's coming in from the bottom, here. 01:33:22.000 --> 01:33:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, the very lowest metal plate that you see is a hot plate. 01:33:28.000 --> 01:33:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it's just a little small, like, 3x5 inch hot plate. I've got several different hot plates here. 01:33:35.000 --> 01:33:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Some of them are more sophisticated, and others are kind of basic, like this one. And you can't control the heat on this guy. 01:33:42.000 --> 01:33:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it gets very hot. Very, very, very hot. So I have… 01:33:48.000 --> 01:33:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The hot plate… 01:33:50.000 --> 01:33:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then a 1 eighth inch piece of sheet aluminum. 01:33:56.000 --> 01:33:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then the printed circuit board. 01:33:59.000 --> 01:34:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then the C-clamps. 01:34:02.000 --> 01:34:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The bottom of the seat clamps are, uh, touching the bottom of the hot plate. 01:34:08.000 --> 01:34:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it's the hot plate that is clamped to a vise off to the left that you can't see. 01:34:14.000 --> 01:34:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's a good-sized vice, probably 10 pounds. 01:34:18.000 --> 01:34:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and wait. 01:34:20.000 --> 01:34:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this gets me where, as a fixture, it's all… 01:34:25.000 --> 01:34:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: firmly… 01:34:27.000 --> 01:34:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Assembled. 01:34:29.000 --> 01:34:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then I can just apply heat. 01:34:33.000 --> 01:34:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And that's coming, like I said, it's coming up through the bottom. Now, I've, I've never worried about other. 01:34:39.000 --> 01:34:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: pipe caps that are on the printer board, um, they don't… 01:34:45.000 --> 01:34:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: come unsoldered, but if you were ever worried, one of the things I've learned that I can do. 01:34:51.000 --> 01:34:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, through other applications is just use a wet paper towel and wrap it around. 01:34:57.000 --> 01:35:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um… you still might get smoke. 01:35:02.000 --> 01:35:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But, uh… 01:35:04.000 --> 01:35:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's probably not gonna catch the shop on fire. 01:35:13.000 --> 01:35:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And here is the complete, um… it's all done here. 01:35:18.000 --> 01:35:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's on the MBA board. 01:35:21.000 --> 01:35:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Now, this is probably the main thing that I learned that I didn't know before. Hopefully, it's something that you can benefit by. 01:35:29.000 --> 01:35:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But these PIN… these pipe cap probe pins are soldered from the underside, and for 11 GHz, the probe length is critical. 01:35:38.000 --> 01:35:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this is what makes it work to me, is that we can… 01:35:43.000 --> 01:35:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Use a half inch size and yet a very short and critical length. 01:35:49.000 --> 01:35:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Probe that is inserted from the bottom. 01:35:54.000 --> 01:36:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And is perfectly straight and about as consistent as you're gonna get as an amateur. 01:36:02.000 --> 01:36:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So the green arrows point to everywhere that a pipe cap probe needs to be inserted on this board. 01:36:10.000 --> 01:36:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the pipe cap probes are shown over to the right. I didn't even know this stuff existed. 01:36:15.000 --> 01:36:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But I'm sure some of you did. These are actually in the category on Mauser of, uh… 01:36:23.000 --> 01:36:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: PIN and receptacle, PIN and receptacle. 01:36:28.000 --> 01:36:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: These, of course, are the pins. 01:36:30.000 --> 01:36:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But even the pins themselves come in variety of length. 01:36:35.000 --> 01:36:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Diameter, and head style and thickness. 01:36:40.000 --> 01:36:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: These are nail style, so they have a flat head. 01:36:45.000 --> 01:36:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, and a certain diameter, and a certain length, and the length is critical. 01:36:51.000 --> 01:36:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So here's the data. 01:36:54.000 --> 01:36:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The length is .179. 01:36:57.000 --> 01:37:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Inches, or 4.55 millimeters from the top of the nail head. 01:37:08.000 --> 01:37:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The diameter is .018 inches, or… 01:37:12.000 --> 01:37:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 0.46 millimeter. 01:37:16.000 --> 01:37:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Which happens to fit a .02 inch. 01:37:21.000 --> 01:37:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: hole in the PCB. 01:37:29.000 --> 01:37:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this company, Millmax, has a large variety of these, different lengths, different diameters, different nail style heads. 01:37:38.000 --> 01:37:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But, uh, Bowser only carries a handful of. 01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: all that MillMax offers. There is a minimum order quantity if you order directly from MillMax, but at Mauser, you can order one. 01:37:54.000 --> 01:38:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, going back to the board, uh, the pipe cap filter locations are indicated by these blue circles. 01:38:01.000 --> 01:38:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, so, 3 of them. 01:38:04.000 --> 01:38:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then here's a picture of the, uh, here on the left at the nail is actually inserted, or the pinned. 01:38:12.000 --> 01:38:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's not soldered yet, and then on the right side, it shows what it looks like with it soldered. 01:38:21.000 --> 01:38:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And there's the completed board. 01:38:25.000 --> 01:38:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this is the picture of it in the beacon. So, uh, working good, uh, does everything that it's supposed to do. 01:38:33.000 --> 01:38:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, tuned up well, no problems. 01:38:39.000 --> 01:38:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And that is all I have. 01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Here are the references that referred to earlier in the presentation. All these links would take you to these. 01:38:48.000 --> 01:38:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, various places. 01:38:52.000 --> 01:38:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Are there any questions or comments? 01:39:01.000 --> 01:39:03.000 Scott AA5AM: Hey, Jim. 01:39:03.000 --> 01:39:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Hi, Scott. 01:39:03.000 --> 01:39:11.000 Scott AA5AM: One… hey, one of the, uh, things on the pipe cap pens, um, one thing I saw someone using was a hat PIN. 01:39:12.000 --> 01:39:17.000 Scott AA5AM: And you can get those off Amazon in copper, brass, silver… 01:39:12.000 --> 01:39:14.000 Bob N5BRG: Mm-hmm. 01:39:17.000 --> 01:39:19.000 Scott AA5AM: I think maybe even Gold Plate? 01:39:21.000 --> 01:39:26.000 Scott AA5AM: Now, as far as the tolerances and lengths and diameters and stuff, it's kind of a… 01:39:26.000 --> 01:39:29.000 Scott AA5AM: luck of the draw, I guess, but… 01:39:29.000 --> 01:39:33.000 Scott AA5AM: But those work, uh… seem to work pretty well as well, also. 01:39:34.000 --> 01:39:40.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, 3 eighths inch pipe cap, uh, ends are available at most plumbing supply places. 01:39:46.000 --> 01:39:55.000 Don VE6HQ: Jim, this is Don. I've just got a question. What about, uh, environmental effects, you know, temperature changes? In your experience. 01:39:55.000 --> 01:40:01.000 Don VE6HQ: How, how, uh, sensitive are these pipe cap filters to, uh. 01:40:01.000 --> 01:40:04.000 Don VE6HQ: To, uh, to temperature change, uh… 01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:07.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, the queue is too low, it's not an issue. 01:40:14.000 --> 01:40:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Well, that's a great question. I mean, if you talk about thermal and you look at those beacons. 01:40:20.000 --> 01:40:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: They're outdoors, and they're going to go through quite a fluctuation of temperature. I think it would be a whole interesting. 01:40:29.000 --> 01:40:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, investigation, you know, as to… if there were enough time to understand what's going to happen. 01:40:37.000 --> 01:40:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Over a couple of years' time, as these beacons are exposed to the elements. 01:40:43.000 --> 01:40:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But I'm glad that, um, Kent can tell us that as far as the pipe cap filters. 01:40:49.000 --> 01:40:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: They're probably not gonna change their… 01:40:54.000 --> 01:40:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: filtration effect… 01:40:54.000 --> 01:41:02.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, the queue is very low in those filters, uh, they don't move far enough to change the bandwidth. 01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Of course, I've had a lot of concern about. 01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:08.000 Don VE6HQ: Perfect. 01:41:09.000 --> 01:41:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: What's gonna happen to other components. 01:41:12.000 --> 01:41:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, in fact, we made our beacon, the one that I've made anyway, to where it is remotely controlled. 01:41:21.000 --> 01:41:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, so that it can be… each element of the beacon can be turned on and off. 01:41:29.000 --> 01:41:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Just because I thought it might be the best way to approach the heat problem that we have in Texas is. 01:41:37.000 --> 01:41:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: let Al, or Scott or, you know, whoever's gonna have. 01:41:42.000 --> 01:41:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: A need to turn it on and off at will, and each part of it, so they can turn on the 10. 01:41:48.000 --> 01:41:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You turn on the 24, you turn on the 47, you turn off any one of those. 01:41:54.000 --> 01:42:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh… and it starts with the GPS, because that's actually got remote control, so we can… we can shut it all down, except for the receiver that's listening for the cell phone command. 01:42:07.000 --> 01:42:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That would stay on all the time. 01:42:11.000 --> 01:42:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I don't want to burn up the 47 GHz beacon when it gets to be 110. 01:42:17.000 --> 01:42:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Or 108. 01:42:20.000 --> 01:42:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, if we can just turn it on and listen to it for an hour and then turn it off. 01:42:25.000 --> 01:42:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then wait a few hours and turn it on and turn it off. 01:42:30.000 --> 01:42:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, but that might be overkill, and it might be that there won't be really any problem. 01:42:40.000 --> 01:42:45.000 G8EMY/W5: If you want to go higher, 3 eighths inch, uh, type caps are available. 01:42:47.000 --> 01:42:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Thank you for that. I saw your chat. 01:42:54.000 --> 01:42:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Any other questions? 01:43:03.000 --> 01:43:08.000 Bob N5BRG: I'll comment, Jim, on the, uh, earlier talk about the strip line. 01:43:08.000 --> 01:43:14.000 Bob N5BRG: You were talking about the MATLAB. There are programs out there on Ubutu. 01:43:14.000 --> 01:43:20.000 Bob N5BRG: Or Linux, that, like Octave, that's sort of a knockoff of MATLAB, and I've worked with those. 01:43:20.000 --> 01:43:24.000 Bob N5BRG: In the past, doing strip line, trying to do strip line design. 01:43:25.000 --> 01:43:29.000 Bob N5BRG: And you can find examples, too, with searches on the internet. 01:43:30.000 --> 01:43:34.000 Bob N5BRG: And then the other issue is the board material that you, uh, work with. 01:43:35.000 --> 01:43:37.000 Bob N5BRG: And, uh… 01:43:37.000 --> 01:43:42.000 Bob N5BRG: Our friend Kent here runs some boards occasionally, and he's offered a couple of times to run. 01:43:42.000 --> 01:43:49.000 Bob N5BRG: on special RF material, but you have to decide what material you're going to run on and use the proper. 01:43:49.000 --> 01:43:51.000 Bob N5BRG: Characteristics for that material. 01:43:51.000 --> 01:43:57.000 Bob N5BRG: And, uh, one other company that's out there for PCB that I've used. 01:43:57.000 --> 01:44:00.000 Bob N5BRG: Uh, they offer a, uh… 01:44:00.000 --> 01:44:04.000 Bob N5BRG: I'll call it, like, a prototype board run. 01:44:04.000 --> 01:44:08.000 Bob N5BRG: Where you can build a board that's… it's about 5 inches square, I think. 01:44:08.000 --> 01:44:13.000 Bob N5BRG: And they have a particular RF material that they use, which is a Rogers material. 01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:20.000 Bob N5BRG: And uh… and it gets kind of expensive, you know, it's a few hundred dollars to run something, but… 01:44:21.000 --> 01:44:28.000 Bob N5BRG: You know, it could be a situation where later on, if we can't get them run any other way, we could. 01:44:28.000 --> 01:44:34.000 Bob N5BRG: Gang up boards that people want to run and put them on there, because most of these boards are not very big. 01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:41.000 Bob N5BRG: Although with filter designs, if you're at a low frequency, they could get bigger, but uh… 01:44:41.000 --> 01:44:47.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, Bob, I have large quantities of Arlon 25N. 01:44:41.000 --> 01:44:43.000 Bob N5BRG: We could… yeah. 01:44:47.000 --> 01:44:52.000 G8EMY/W5: Which is the same as Rogers 4350. That's in stock. 01:44:52.000 --> 01:44:54.000 Bob N5BRG: Okay. 01:44:55.000 --> 01:45:00.000 Bob N5BRG: And so, if we give you a, uh, a board layout, how would that work? 01:45:01.000 --> 01:45:08.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, I can mix it with some other boards and get a run made, and it'll be a lot less than what I just heard quoted. 01:45:09.000 --> 01:45:11.000 Bob N5BRG: Okay, well, good. 01:45:12.000 --> 01:45:17.000 Bob N5BRG: That sounds interesting. We should be experimenting with that, and. 01:45:16.000 --> 01:45:18.000 G8EMY/W5: Yeah. 01:45:17.000 --> 01:45:25.000 Bob N5BRG: Trying to, uh… because usually you don't get what you want until you've tweaked it 2 or 3 times, at least, to, uh… 01:45:24.000 --> 01:45:30.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, the challenge is some of those RF materials, uh, you can't do plated through holes. 01:45:30.000 --> 01:45:34.000 G8EMY/W5: Except through a plasma process that's horribly expensive. 01:45:36.000 --> 01:45:38.000 Bob N5BRG: So you have to use Z wires, I guess. 01:45:39.000 --> 01:45:42.000 G8EMY/W5: Not the preferred way of doing it. 01:45:43.000 --> 01:45:46.000 Bob N5BRG: What's the preferred way? 01:45:46.000 --> 01:45:57.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, pick a material which uses the, uh, FR4-type processing, which Arlon 25N, Rogers 4350 will do normal PC board processing. 01:45:57.000 --> 01:46:04.000 G8EMY/W5: And you can do play through holes. The Duroid materials, which has the dielectric constants near to. 01:46:04.000 --> 01:46:13.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, uh, it's hard to find a place to leave and touch it, because you're forced to use chemicals which will etch Teflon. 01:46:13.000 --> 01:46:18.000 G8EMY/W5: And do you know what kind of chemicals are necessary to etch Teflon? 01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:23.000 Bob N5BRG: So the board material that you mentioned, is it plated? Can we do plated through holes in it? 01:46:24.000 --> 01:46:26.000 G8EMY/W5: Absolutely. 01:46:25.000 --> 01:46:35.000 Bob N5BRG: Okay, because you notice, there's a lot of free vias all around to get the ground planes tied together, so you need a lot of play-through holes. 01:46:35.000 --> 01:46:37.000 G8EMY/W5: Oh, I can't believe that. 01:46:38.000 --> 01:46:45.000 G8EMY/W5: Let's just say the materials that will etch Teflon, the EPA does not approve of very highly. 01:46:48.000 --> 01:46:50.000 Bob N5BRG: Okay. 01:46:57.000 --> 01:47:03.000 G8EMY/W5: Yeah, Bob, I got 5,000 boards made last year, so… the guys know me. 01:47:03.000 --> 01:47:13.000 Bob N5BRG: Well, I may come get some more information from you, and I've got a board that I've laid out that I can talk about in a little bit, and I may tweak the design to fit that material and. 01:47:14.000 --> 01:47:17.000 Bob N5BRG: And, uh, talk you into running it for me. 01:47:17.000 --> 01:47:20.000 G8EMY/W5: What does it do, and what material did you design it around? 01:47:21.000 --> 01:47:32.000 Bob N5BRG: like a Rogers… it's an odd material, I don't remember the exact number, but it's a laminate with a Rogers material on one side and FR4 in the middle. 01:47:32.000 --> 01:47:36.000 Bob N5BRG: There's the way the manufacturer's data sheet read, but… 01:47:36.000 --> 01:47:41.000 G8EMY/W5: Weird. What was… what dielectric concept did you design around? 01:47:37.000 --> 01:47:39.000 Bob N5BRG: Yeah. 01:47:39.000 --> 01:47:47.000 Bob N5BRG: The problem is, the Rogers material is so thin that they laminate it to FR4 just to give the board some strength so it won't curl. 01:47:47.000 --> 01:47:50.000 Bob N5BRG: You know, when you process it. 01:47:48.000 --> 01:47:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh. 01:47:50.000 --> 01:47:55.000 G8EMY/W5: what thickness and what dielectric constant of the RF? 01:47:53.000 --> 01:48:02.000 Bob N5BRG: All right, I would have to look that up. I don't remember. I just worked with the numbers that they said to use for trace widths and spaces, you know? 01:48:02.000 --> 01:48:05.000 Bob N5BRG: Which is what you tweak in the long run here. 01:48:08.000 --> 01:48:14.000 Bob N5BRG: I'll talk about it later when we talk about things that we're doing here, if that's okay with Jim. 01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yes. 01:48:17.000 --> 01:48:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: All right. I'm gonna move on here. Uh, this is gonna be a replay of… 01:48:23.000 --> 01:48:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, Al Ward talking to us about sun noise measurement. 01:48:28.000 --> 01:48:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I can't see this enough, um, personally speaking, because it reminds me again and again and again. 01:48:37.000 --> 01:48:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, and so I'm gonna start this going now. The important thing is that I've got the audio shared. 01:48:44.000 --> 01:48:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, let's see if I've. 01:48:49.000 --> 01:48:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Done this right. 01:48:51.000 --> 01:48:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: No, I don't think I have. 01:49:01.000 --> 01:49:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh, sure, sorry. 01:49:13.000 --> 01:49:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Right. 01:49:27.000 --> 01:49:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'm not hearing the audio being shared, so let me go back through this again. 01:51:10.000 --> 01:51:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Sometimes these QSO attempts result in one ways. 01:51:15.000 --> 01:51:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And when you're on the microwave bands. 01:51:18.000 --> 01:51:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The similar setups, similar power, similar noise figure. 01:51:22.000 --> 01:51:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And only one person is hearing one end of it. 01:51:25.000 --> 01:51:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You start to ask yourself, what's wrong? 01:51:28.000 --> 01:51:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And that's what we're going to talk about here. So, go ahead to the next slide, Jim. 01:51:33.000 --> 01:51:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, you know, most of the time, it's, uh, back in the old days, it's, you know, can you hear me type of thing, and nowadays, it's a lot of, can you see me type of thing, which is nice in that. 01:51:45.000 --> 01:51:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You do get dB reports. 01:51:48.000 --> 01:51:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So it's nice to compare dB reports, uh, you know, from WSJT. But when you can't hear or see a guy, you first ask yourself, are you on the moon? 01:51:57.000 --> 01:52:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And on the upper bands, you can get a little bit of moon noise. 01:52:02.000 --> 01:52:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, so that kind of helps to keep you on the moon. But then, the question would be, okay, the moon's rising to the east, so when the sun rose earlier in the day. 01:52:12.000 --> 01:52:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Where you calibrate it on the sun. 01:52:15.000 --> 01:52:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, uh, that's… a lot of times, that's what I do. I kind of hope that the sun comes up before the moon does, and… 01:52:20.000 --> 01:52:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You can use one to calibrate the other. 01:52:23.000 --> 01:52:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the other thing is, well, can you hear your LNA noise increase when you power it up? Because most of the time. 01:52:30.000 --> 01:52:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: for an EME type of system, your LMA should be out at the feed. 01:52:35.000 --> 01:52:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you should be able to hear, you know, the noise rising from that. 01:52:40.000 --> 01:52:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And probably to the tune of 15 to 20 dB, depending on how much gain you have out there. 01:52:47.000 --> 01:52:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, it's always nice to have a separate on-off switch for the LMA. 01:52:51.000 --> 01:52:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You power up the transverter, then you power up the LNA, oh yeah, I can see it, so there's a comfort level there. 01:52:57.000 --> 01:53:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And I usually set the IF gain so I can get a nice SVeter readings, so that I can see that dB increase. 01:53:04.000 --> 01:53:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I never set all my transverters down to S0 or S1. 01:53:09.000 --> 01:53:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Because then you don't know if they're broke or if they're working. 01:53:12.000 --> 01:53:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, you know, we're not too worried about dynamic range around here, but the purest. 01:53:18.000 --> 01:53:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: would say, you know, you gotta control that gain, but I take advantage of it here and use it to verify that I'm working. 01:53:26.000 --> 01:53:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, correctly. So lastly, uh, what is your termination of the cold sky difference in dB? 01:53:32.000 --> 01:53:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And when I asked that question to the Central States crowd, I was happy to see that a fair number of them. 01:53:39.000 --> 01:53:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Had this sort of switch. 01:53:41.000 --> 01:53:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then, you know, for those that don't, maybe they're asking what or why. So we'll talk about the advantage of having that switch and what it takes to incorporate that. 01:53:52.000 --> 01:53:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Go ahead. 01:54:05.000 --> 01:54:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Alright. When you, uh, connect any antenna to a receiver, you're basically. 01:54:12.000 --> 01:54:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: hearing or seeing noise that is displayed on your S-meter. 01:54:17.000 --> 01:54:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And if you hook up an HF antenna to an HF rig, generally you're going to see background noise. 01:54:24.000 --> 01:54:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, especially down on 160, 80, and 40. Uh, maybe on 10 meters you might not, because it's generally a quieter band, but. 01:54:32.000 --> 01:54:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, you will see some noise increase. 01:54:38.000 --> 01:54:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And with the usual conversion gain that we have on EME, we still don't know if that's a good noise level or a bad noise level. What we need is a reference. 01:54:47.000 --> 01:54:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the best reference is to point the antenna down to the ground, which is actually 290 Kelvin. 01:54:53.000 --> 01:54:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then you point back to the cold sky, and the difference in dB provides an indication of how quiet. 01:54:59.000 --> 01:55:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Or noisy your system is. 01:55:02.000 --> 01:55:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you always want the load to be higher than, we'll call it cold sky. 01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And I'll show you why as we move on to a couple other graphs. 01:55:12.000 --> 01:55:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But instead of pointing… oh, backing up… back up, Jim. 01:55:17.000 --> 01:55:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, instead of pointing the antenna down to the ground, I just switch in a 50 ohm termination for my 290 Kelvin. 01:55:23.000 --> 01:55:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, reference. And, uh, because some of these rotors, like the new, um… 01:55:28.000 --> 01:55:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: uh, slew drives. You know, they move so slow. 01:55:32.000 --> 01:55:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: that to go from cold sky to ground, yeah, would take many, many minutes. So. 01:55:37.000 --> 01:55:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So to have a switch where I can switch in 50 ohms right at the input to the LNA. 01:55:42.000 --> 01:55:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: would be an advantage, and I would give you some confidence that your system was working. 01:55:47.000 --> 01:55:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: or you had another problem. Uh, go ahead, Jim. 01:55:55.000 --> 01:56:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: All right, in general, the background noise on the microwave bands can be as low as 25 or 50 Kelvin. 01:56:01.000 --> 01:56:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And that's considerably lower than the 290 Kelvin from a load. Now, on 6 meters, I think I remember. 01:56:07.000 --> 01:56:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You know, the gra… the sky noise can be, like, several thousand K, so it's very, very noisy. 01:56:14.000 --> 01:56:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So the actual level depends on the side lobes of your antenna and what the other lobes are appointed at. 01:56:21.000 --> 01:56:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And also… 01:56:23.000 --> 01:56:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Problem we have, like, a 9.02, 2304. 01:56:27.000 --> 01:56:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, is, uh, man-made interference. 01:56:31.000 --> 01:56:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: From, uh, cell systems. 01:56:34.000 --> 01:56:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And from, uh, internet service providers. Yeah, bands like 10 GHz right now are pretty quiet. 01:56:41.000 --> 01:56:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 3400 is… eh, maybe. 5760 is pretty noisy. 01:56:47.000 --> 01:56:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And 2304 is getting there, and 902 is really noisy. When I say noisy, I'm talking about a lot of man-made. 01:56:56.000 --> 01:57:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: interference. I mean, years ago, when we first got on EME, we didn't have these issues, but we didn't have fast internet either, so… 01:57:03.000 --> 01:57:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'm blaming on the fast internet that most of you guys out there have, maybe not me, so let's move on to the next one, Jim. 01:57:12.000 --> 01:57:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: All right, so first off, when we're dealing with sky temperature, we need to be dealing in Kelvins. 01:57:18.000 --> 01:57:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it's not degrees Kelvin, it's just Kelvins. And you can convert the noise figure to a temperature. 01:57:27.000 --> 01:57:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: By taking the noise figure in as a ratio, subtracting 1 times 290 Kelvin gives you 35 Kelvin. 01:57:36.000 --> 01:57:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, a 1 dB, or excuse me, a half a dB noise figure. 01:57:40.000 --> 01:57:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: converted to Kelvin's is 35.4. If you go to the next slide, because where I have a graph of that. 01:57:49.000 --> 01:57:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And let me… okay. So here's a graph of that. Basically, zero dB noise figure, 0 Kelvin. 01:57:56.000 --> 01:58:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, 2 dB noise figure is about 170 Kelvin, and in between, you get the numbers, like, half a dB. 01:58:03.000 --> 01:58:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: that on the x-axis, you go up to the curb and over, you get that 35 Kelvin. 01:58:08.000 --> 01:58:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: For a 1 dB noise figure, it's about 75 Kelvin. And we have… we need to convert. 01:58:14.000 --> 01:58:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: dBs to Kelvin, so we can add on antenna temperature to it. 01:58:18.000 --> 01:58:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, go ahead, Jim. 01:58:22.000 --> 01:58:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Alright. Can you slide it up a little bit, or do I do that here? 01:58:30.000 --> 01:58:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Cut off a little bit there. All right. 01:58:33.000 --> 01:58:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So… 01:58:35.000 --> 01:58:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: There we go. So if we, uh, install our 50 ohm load on our LMA. 01:58:40.000 --> 01:58:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Our equivalent system noise temperature will be the 290 Kelvin of the termination. 01:58:46.000 --> 01:58:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and the 35 Kelvin of the receiver for our half a dB noise figure receiver. 01:58:52.000 --> 01:59:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So that equals 325 Kelvin. Now, when we attach the antenna to the input of the LMA. 01:59:00.000 --> 01:59:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Our equivalent noise temperature is now. 01:59:02.000 --> 01:59:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 50K plus 35 equals 85K. Well, the nice thing about these two numbers is you can take 10 log the ratio of 325 divided by 85. 01:59:12.000 --> 01:59:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And take 10 log of it. 01:59:15.000 --> 01:59:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you get 6 dB. 01:59:17.000 --> 01:59:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is a good number to try to achieve on any microwave band. 01:59:23.000 --> 01:59:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Where, hopefully, your antenna temperature is lower. 01:59:27.000 --> 01:59:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And that takes a good antenna, and it takes a quiet background, if you will. 01:59:34.000 --> 01:59:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If we don't see anything like this, then we probably, you know, do have an issue that's worth looking at. 01:59:41.000 --> 01:59:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, go on there, Jim. 01:59:44.000 --> 01:59:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Alright, here's a plot that's kind of interesting in that… 01:59:48.000 --> 01:59:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: it shows the sensitivity versus noise figure. This is a pretty basic equation that says the sensitivity. 01:59:56.000 --> 02:00:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: is minus 174 dBm per herzt bandwidth plus 10 log bandwidth plus 10 log noise figure. 02:00:04.000 --> 02:00:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And if you had a perfect receiver in a 1Hz bandwidth and 0 dB noise figure, we'd have a noise floor of minus 174 dBm. 02:00:13.000 --> 02:00:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And if you… 02:00:15.000 --> 02:00:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If you look over here at this number. 02:00:19.000 --> 02:00:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If your termination's 290 Kelvin, then this TA over T naught. 02:00:25.000 --> 02:00:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um… subtracts out… 02:00:28.000 --> 02:00:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and you have just noise figure. So, you have a straight line of 0 dB noise figure is minus 174 dBm. 02:00:36.000 --> 02:00:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If you go up to 5 dB noise figure, it's minus 169 dBm. 02:00:42.000 --> 02:00:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is in the system. 02:00:44.000 --> 02:00:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: where the termination resistor is 290 Kelvin. 02:00:48.000 --> 02:00:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But in the world of looking up at the sky, we get to manipulate this last. 02:00:53.000 --> 02:00:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Term out here, and look at the effect that lower antenna temperature has. 02:00:59.000 --> 02:01:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, if we have a 25 Kelvin noise temperature. 02:01:03.000 --> 02:01:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, for the, uh, antenna. 02:01:06.000 --> 02:01:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: A 5 dB noise figure, oh, still provides maybe an extra dB or so of sensitivity. 02:01:13.000 --> 02:01:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But as you get down closer to zero on this blue curve. 02:01:17.000 --> 02:01:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh, you can see that the… 02:01:20.000 --> 02:01:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: sensitivities improved immensely with lower noise figure, but also lower antenna temperature. 02:01:27.000 --> 02:01:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: you could generate another plot here of, say, TA equals 10 degrees, and you're going to be somewhere down here as well. 02:01:34.000 --> 02:01:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you can also see if your sky temperature is more than 290 Kelvin, you're up here where noise figure doesn't make a lot of difference because. 02:01:43.000 --> 02:01:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You're totally dominated by the antenna temperature. 02:01:46.000 --> 02:01:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But in microwave situations, or installations, we'd like to be in this range here, where you can actually get maybe a 7 dB or even greater. 02:01:56.000 --> 02:01:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, 50 ohm over cold sky. 02:02:01.000 --> 02:02:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'll go on there, Jim? 02:02:05.000 --> 02:02:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: All right, so the next 2 slides show a couple of ways of incorporating this cold sky determination switch. 02:02:12.000 --> 02:02:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And if you go to the next one, it's basically a block diagram. 02:02:16.000 --> 02:02:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Of a transverter system. 02:02:19.000 --> 02:02:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, driven by a sequencer. 02:02:23.000 --> 02:02:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So you'll probably, uh, get some other ideas here, hopefully, but these are what, uh, uh, typically in my system would look like. 02:02:31.000 --> 02:02:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: in terms of the transverter, uh, hookup. You've got an IF rig, a lot of times you have a transmit and receive line. 02:02:40.000 --> 02:02:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Going to a transverter. 02:02:42.000 --> 02:02:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then on the transmit side, we're going to send power out to the PA, and then we go to our… we'll call it our septum feed, which is typically used on microwave bands. 02:02:52.000 --> 02:02:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this septum feed is, uh, for generating circular polarity. 02:02:57.000 --> 02:03:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Which we do on all the microwave bands. 02:03:01.000 --> 02:03:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: from 902 through 10 gig right now. Or, excuse me, not… 902 through 5760. 02:03:09.000 --> 02:03:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 10 gig is linear, as well as everything above 10 gig polarity. 02:03:15.000 --> 02:03:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: on receive. 02:03:19.000 --> 02:03:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: on receive, um, I have a relay in front of the LNA. 02:03:24.000 --> 02:03:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you can see that connected to the receipt port. I know you can't see my cursor, but hopefully you can follow the arrows. 02:03:31.000 --> 02:03:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: from the septum feed. 02:03:33.000 --> 02:03:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh, thank you, Jim. It goes into a single pole double throw relay. 02:03:39.000 --> 02:03:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: to the LNA, with a 50 ohm load on one port and the antenna. 02:03:44.000 --> 02:03:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: on the other port. And it's this relay here that we're going to control. 02:03:49.000 --> 02:03:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, to look at, we'll call it Cold Sky over 50 ohms. 02:03:54.000 --> 02:03:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'll just talk a little bit about a sequencer here. 02:03:58.000 --> 02:04:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is your typical Demi or W6PQL sense sequencer. 02:04:04.000 --> 02:04:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Normally, there's 4 outputs, and these can be configured. 02:04:09.000 --> 02:04:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: In various ways. 02:04:11.000 --> 02:04:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, the, uh, normal receive state is… 02:04:16.000 --> 02:04:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: in the, uh… 02:04:18.000 --> 02:04:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: number one position, so I'm… I'm sending 12 volts to my LNA. 02:04:23.000 --> 02:04:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then these other number 2, 3, and 4, number 2 is 24 volts on transmit. 02:04:29.000 --> 02:04:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Number 3 is, uh, control line. 02:04:32.000 --> 02:04:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And number 4 is a transverter control. You can do this in various ways, but. 02:04:39.000 --> 02:04:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Basically, I'd like to make sure that my relay is terminate… is terminating the LNA before I go to transmit. 02:04:48.000 --> 02:04:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So the main purpose of a sequencer is to help control the PA. Now, I realized, I was talking to, um, I think it was Jim earlier. 02:04:58.000 --> 02:05:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And I think one of the ICOM rigs, or maybe all the ICOM rigs, has some sequencing. 02:05:03.000 --> 02:05:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Both going to transmit and back to receive and sequencing going back to receive is as important as going to transmit. 02:05:11.000 --> 02:05:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Basically, you want to limit any power going out. 02:05:15.000 --> 02:05:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Until your system is in the… 02:05:18.000 --> 02:05:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: transmit state, totally. And when you're working with waveguide relays. 02:05:23.000 --> 02:05:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, you know, you've got maybe 100, 200, 300 milliseconds of time as it transitions from receive to transmit, and from transmit back to receive. 02:05:33.000 --> 02:05:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So the TR sequencer here, uh, sequence is going to transmit, and sequence is when going back to receive. 02:05:41.000 --> 02:05:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Which is very important. Now, the next thing is, is how do you control this relay out here? 02:05:48.000 --> 02:05:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Well, the way it's set up right now is… 02:05:52.000 --> 02:05:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If I want to go to a termination, I supply 12 volts to this relay. 02:05:56.000 --> 02:06:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: through diode D3. Normally, the control voltage comes through D2. 02:06:01.000 --> 02:06:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And of course, putting a, um… 02:06:03.000 --> 02:06:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: A diode. 02:06:05.000 --> 02:06:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Across the relay coil is a good way to keep you from getting jolted. 02:06:10.000 --> 02:06:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And also protecting, uh, other components and, uh, and circuitry. 02:06:15.000 --> 02:06:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So I always put a back EMF diode across the relay. 02:06:19.000 --> 02:06:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: coil, that is. So when I go to termination, I just apply 12 volts. 02:06:26.000 --> 02:06:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Or 24 volts. 02:06:28.000 --> 02:06:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: to D3, and this guy will go from antenna to 50 ohms, and that way you can easily. 02:06:34.000 --> 02:06:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Get a quick check, a quick sandy check as to how your system is working. 02:06:39.000 --> 02:06:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, this is not a fail-safe situation. I don't use this particular method. 02:06:47.000 --> 02:06:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Unless my relay, like, I have one waveguide relay on 10 GHz. 02:06:52.000 --> 02:06:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, it normally stays in the receive mode until I go to transmit, because it pulls a lot of current. 02:06:59.000 --> 02:07:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the current… it's not a, um… it's a fail-safe type of relay. 02:07:05.000 --> 02:07:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, I use, uh… I prefer option 2 here, and if you just flip to the next slide. 02:07:14.000 --> 02:07:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This particular slide here, when I… when the system is not fired up at all, you can see that the relay. 02:07:22.000 --> 02:07:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Normally closed position is to the 50 ohm load. 02:07:27.000 --> 02:07:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, when I'm… when this whole system is off. 02:07:30.000 --> 02:07:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And when I'm, um… 02:07:33.000 --> 02:07:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Not energized, the LMA is terminated. 02:07:37.000 --> 02:07:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, I only go to, uh… 02:07:40.000 --> 02:07:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: the feed through the normally open port when I'm actually receiving. 02:07:45.000 --> 02:07:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And that way, when I want to go to termination, I just remove the 12… or the, uh… 02:07:51.000 --> 02:07:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 24 volts from the relay, so that's what this switch is doing right here. 02:07:55.000 --> 02:08:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So it's another way to do it. It all depends on whether or not you… you want to have this relay. 02:08:01.000 --> 02:08:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: connected to the LNA, energized when you receive, or energized when you transmit. 02:08:07.000 --> 02:08:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Personal preference, I like, uh, I like this method, uh, uh, better than the other one. 02:08:15.000 --> 02:08:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Any questions, uh, about that? 02:08:24.000 --> 02:08:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Alright, let's go on, Jim. 02:08:28.000 --> 02:08:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, now it's, uh, we need to move on to how we can make that measurement. 02:08:33.000 --> 02:08:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, let's look at some… several methods here. This is the old-fashioned. 02:08:38.000 --> 02:08:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: way of doing it with GR meters. I like these. They're, uh… they have pretty good averaging. They work at 30 MHz. We convert them to 28. 02:08:47.000 --> 02:08:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, uh, they have a nice big scale. 02:08:50.000 --> 02:08:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And there are other ways of doing this, but these are ones that I've had around for years. 02:08:56.000 --> 02:09:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, um, so this is what I'm kind of used to using, and you can see, especially on the meter on the right. 02:09:03.000 --> 02:09:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You can see it's… say it's 10 dB full scale, and when you're down 10 dB, you're over here, so you got a nice. 02:09:10.000 --> 02:09:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: range of, um… 02:09:12.000 --> 02:09:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: of, um… 02:09:14.000 --> 02:09:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You have a nice scale, if you will, for looking at how many dB increase you have, either in. 02:09:20.000 --> 02:09:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Moon noise, sky noise, sun noise, just, you know, very universal. 02:09:26.000 --> 02:09:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, go ahead, Jim. 02:09:30.000 --> 02:09:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Excuse me. 02:09:35.000 --> 02:09:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is the system that I use predominantly out when we're, you know, doing portable. 02:09:42.000 --> 02:09:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, measurements for sun and sun and moon noise. 02:09:46.000 --> 02:09:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it converts the 144 MHz down to 28 for the meter, and I got a little preamp up here as well for. 02:09:53.000 --> 02:09:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Lower gain systems, because this noise figure, or this meter, has a pretty high noise figure. 02:09:59.000 --> 02:10:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's… it's not like your… your, uh, your weak signal receiver. I mean, a noise figure is probably… it's got tubes in there, so it's probably at least 10 dB. 02:10:08.000 --> 02:10:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So you at least need enough noise to overcome it, otherwise you're going to be sitting down here on the far left-hand side of the scale and not be able to make any meaningful measurements. 02:10:19.000 --> 02:10:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, go ahead, Jim. 02:10:23.000 --> 02:10:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is, um… 02:10:25.000 --> 02:10:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Probably my first method that I used years ago. 02:10:30.000 --> 02:10:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it works well, but it's kind of a narrow band. 02:10:34.000 --> 02:10:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: approach, if you will. You basically take the audio. 02:10:38.000 --> 02:10:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: out of your, um, your speaker, headphone jack, or whatever, and you put it into an A/C voltmeter, like this. 02:10:46.000 --> 02:10:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you get a nice dB scale up there, just like the previous, um… 02:10:51.000 --> 02:10:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: uh, measuring instruments. 02:10:53.000 --> 02:10:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But in order to make this work, you have to turn the volume up on your. 02:10:58.000 --> 02:11:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, on your radio to get a reading, and… 02:11:03.000 --> 02:11:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: reduce the RF gain to get it down in the linear range, and most of the time you should probably turn the AGC off. 02:11:11.000 --> 02:11:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, start with that. 02:11:14.000 --> 02:11:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, increase the audio gain, turn the AGC off, and turn… and turn the audio up. 02:11:20.000 --> 02:11:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and reduce RF gain. 02:11:23.000 --> 02:11:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you can generally tell. 02:11:26.000 --> 02:11:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If you're getting meaningful numbers. 02:11:29.000 --> 02:11:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: by adding an attenuator in the RF line, or some sort of self-calibrating. 02:11:35.000 --> 02:11:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But you have to get this meter… you have to get your whole receiver operating in the linear range. 02:11:41.000 --> 02:11:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The disadvantage of the audio meter is that it does operate only over several kilohertz, so it's going to give you kind of a jumpy reading. 02:11:49.000 --> 02:11:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But you can put a capacitor across the input and kind of… 02:11:53.000 --> 02:11:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, squelch that a little bit. 02:11:56.000 --> 02:12:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But I also use this on 5760. 02:12:00.000 --> 02:12:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, at times because the GR meter is picking up so much broadband. 02:12:06.000 --> 02:12:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, noise, man-made noise. 02:12:09.000 --> 02:12:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: mainly, uh, you know, ISPs and such, that it's really hard to make a meaningful measurement, so… 02:12:16.000 --> 02:12:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: you know, I, uh, crank up the audio meter and, and uh… 02:12:21.000 --> 02:12:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Or look at it on my, uh, on my flux radio, if you will, to try to get a noise measurement over a narrow band. 02:12:30.000 --> 02:12:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But it's another technique. If we go on to the next one. 02:12:35.000 --> 02:12:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I'd never tried this until I was talking to KZero DSP, I don't know, a month or two ago. 02:12:42.000 --> 02:12:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But it's using the echo mode on WSJT, and this is explained in detail on Bob Atkins' website. 02:12:50.000 --> 02:12:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: He's got a plethora of good, good stuff. 02:12:54.000 --> 02:12:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, uh, check out this URL, bobatkins.com. 02:12:59.000 --> 02:13:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: slash radio, and uh… you'll see this… 02:13:03.000 --> 02:13:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Or you'll see his instructions on how to use WSUX. 02:13:07.000 --> 02:13:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: measuring noise. And what I did was… 02:13:11.000 --> 02:13:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You'll see this better on the next, uh, slide. In fact, why don't we just go over? This is on 2304 that I'm making this measurement. 02:13:19.000 --> 02:13:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Looking up at the sky. 02:13:21.000 --> 02:13:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you look at these numbers here, this is basically. 02:13:25.000 --> 02:13:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'm getting, like, a 60 dB level. 02:13:28.000 --> 02:13:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and then when I go to cold sky, it drops down to 54 dB. 02:13:33.000 --> 02:13:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So the difference between these two is approximately a 6 dB termination over cold sky noise. 02:13:40.000 --> 02:13:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And so this is pretty good for that. It's… it would be, um… 02:13:46.000 --> 02:13:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: you know, well, what am I trying to say? It would be, um… 02:13:50.000 --> 02:13:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I give you a good rough measurement if you have a problem or not. I don't know that you could ever get down to tenths of dBs, but I don't think we're interested in that. We'd like to know. 02:13:59.000 --> 02:14:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Probably within dB or so of what our termination of cold sky noise is. 02:14:04.000 --> 02:14:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Just for a reference for us and our system, and if you had a good number today, and you're able to work people. 02:14:11.000 --> 02:14:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And in a week or so, you still had the same good number, but you can't work people. 02:14:16.000 --> 02:14:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Then it tells you you probably have some other issues, but at least it tells you that you have a system that's capable. 02:14:24.000 --> 02:14:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Of, uh, seeing signals, you know, on the moon. 02:14:30.000 --> 02:14:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Go ahead, Jim. 02:14:34.000 --> 02:14:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, what are some of the solutions, uh… 02:14:37.000 --> 02:14:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You know, a lot of times we need a fairly good. 02:14:41.000 --> 02:14:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: High gain preamp out of the dish, only to overcome, uh… 02:14:47.000 --> 02:14:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Line loss, if you will. 02:14:49.000 --> 02:14:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But that also does not help the intermod. So the intermod is really… 02:14:55.000 --> 02:15:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: These 2x1 products that are introduced, when you take two signals. 02:15:00.000 --> 02:15:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you mix them together, and they provide an in-band response that you really don't want. 02:15:06.000 --> 02:15:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, a lot of times what it takes is to add a good filter after the first stage. 02:15:12.000 --> 02:15:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and also consider salt filters in between L and A gain stages. 02:15:16.000 --> 02:15:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And item number 2 is what the guys like Tommy Henderson do. 02:15:20.000 --> 02:15:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: WD5AGO and his preamps, and also the Demi preamps. 02:15:25.000 --> 02:15:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I had a, uh, a nice Demi preamp on 902, it's a two-stager. 02:15:30.000 --> 02:15:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it had a salt filter in between the two stages. 02:15:36.000 --> 02:15:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And fortunately. 02:15:38.000 --> 02:15:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, even though we're being invaded on our bands, that does allow us to buy. 02:15:44.000 --> 02:15:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Refined saw filters, surface acoustical wave filters, that are actually designed for. 02:15:50.000 --> 02:15:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Some of the bands that we operate in, like 902, 2304. 02:15:55.000 --> 02:16:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And 5760, I'm not sure… I don't think they're readily available up there, but I might be wrong. 02:16:02.000 --> 02:16:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The other thing is, is to put a good surplus cavity filter in between the preamp and the transverter. 02:16:09.000 --> 02:16:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And they are available for 900, 2300, and 5700 bands. 02:16:14.000 --> 02:16:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: There's some for 10G also, but I haven't had a need for that. 02:16:19.000 --> 02:16:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If we go on to the next one, uh, Jim… 02:16:24.000 --> 02:16:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is the filter that I had to use on 902. 02:16:28.000 --> 02:16:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, at home. I could not operate the 902 band terrestrially unless I had this. 02:16:35.000 --> 02:16:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: bandpass filter on the front end of my transfer, or the whole rig. Actually, I transmit through it as well. 02:16:42.000 --> 02:16:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But, uh, you know, these, uh, let's see, the loss is, like, 0.9 dB, so that limits my noise figure to about a dB over the transverter. 02:16:50.000 --> 02:16:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But it's either that or not work people. 02:16:53.000 --> 02:17:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And when I'm on the moon, I use, um… I still have this filter in line between the preamp out the antenna. 02:17:01.000 --> 02:17:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the transverter. So, these are, you know, some things that you may have to do. 02:17:06.000 --> 02:17:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If you're trying to stretch the noise floor down, if you will. 02:17:09.000 --> 02:17:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'll go ahead, Jim. 02:17:13.000 --> 02:17:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is a little, uh, 2-gig filter that, uh… 02:17:17.000 --> 02:17:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I tuned up here for 2304. It's a nice little guy, it's got 1.3 dB of loss. 02:17:24.000 --> 02:17:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it's 60 dB down at the 2100 and 2480. 02:17:30.000 --> 02:17:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So this, uh, you can see here, this is a plot from 1 to 3 GHz. So, 1 GHz down at the left side. 02:17:36.000 --> 02:17:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 2 GHz in the middle, 2.3 GHz here, and 3 up here. And we get rid of all the PCS cellular stuff. 02:17:44.000 --> 02:17:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: On either side of it. 02:17:47.000 --> 02:17:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So these are things that you sometimes have to do. In fact, actually on, uh… 02:17:52.000 --> 02:17:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: On 2304 at home, I have a filter. 02:17:56.000 --> 02:18:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, most of these I've gotten from Kent over the years. It's a big filter, but it's on the front end of my whole system. 02:18:04.000 --> 02:18:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And uh… I had to do this because when I aim at 30 degrees. 02:18:09.000 --> 02:18:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: towards Chicago, I'm looking through, uh, that cell tower, and Jim, this is a cell tower. 02:18:16.000 --> 02:18:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: that you were interrogating there just northeast of me. So I finally decided, I'm just gonna stick the filter in, and I'm gonna live with it. 02:18:23.000 --> 02:18:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, you know, as proof, it worked Florida the other day, so sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. 02:18:29.000 --> 02:18:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And suffer the consequences of a little bit less in the sensitivity area, but. 02:18:35.000 --> 02:18:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: When you got a noise source that's 20, 30 dB over the noise, you know, you, uh… 02:18:40.000 --> 02:18:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You can make a choice on that. 02:18:42.000 --> 02:18:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Can I ask a question about that filter? Yes, sir. Did you change the screws on it to those longer screws, and then. 02:18:50.000 --> 02:18:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Which way do you tune it when you start tuning on it? The middle out, or on the ends? 02:18:56.000 --> 02:19:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Well, that's a good question. It was a long time ago when I did this, but that certainly looks like non-plated brass screws, so… 02:19:02.000 --> 02:19:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'm guessing that, uh… 02:19:06.000 --> 02:19:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I probably needed more insertion. 02:19:10.000 --> 02:19:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: than it was originally designed for, so I'm probably bringing this filter down in frequency, Bob. 02:19:17.000 --> 02:19:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah. Yeah, those aren't original, are they? I just noticed that, I was just curious. 02:19:24.000 --> 02:19:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yep, yep, yeah, it probably was tuned to higher frequency. 02:19:29.000 --> 02:19:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay, go ahead, uh… 02:19:31.000 --> 02:19:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Jim. 02:19:35.000 --> 02:19:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, um, in summary on this one here. 02:19:39.000 --> 02:19:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: incorporating a termination of cold sky switch. 02:19:44.000 --> 02:19:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: will help the EME operator establish a norm for their system. When I… 02:19:49.000 --> 02:19:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: get on the moon, I'm always checking this on, uh… 02:19:53.000 --> 02:20:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh, I'd say, well, all my systems. I always have some way of comparing termination to cold sky. 02:20:01.000 --> 02:20:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, um, you know, it's been real beneficial there. 02:20:06.000 --> 02:20:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Any questions? 02:20:17.000 --> 02:20:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Alright, well, let's… let's go on to the second one. It's kind of a… 02:20:21.000 --> 02:20:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I want… yeah, kind of an extension of this one. 02:20:48.000 --> 02:20:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I think you… don't think he… okay, in other words, okay. 02:20:54.000 --> 02:20:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Trying to think of what the… let's see, what's the name of it, um… 02:20:59.000 --> 02:21:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, okay, that's it. 02:21:07.000 --> 02:21:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, I originally presented this back in 2012. 02:21:10.000 --> 02:21:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And in 2024, we had some numbers, uh, some updated sun noise numbers. I think we… 02:21:18.000 --> 02:21:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Obtained these out at Bob Strickland's place when we were out there during the eclipse. 02:21:23.000 --> 02:21:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: In fact, I'm pretty sure that's when it was, February 3rd of 24. 02:21:27.000 --> 02:21:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And I'm representing it here because. 02:21:30.000 --> 02:21:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I've seen some discussion on MoonNet. 02:21:33.000 --> 02:21:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: about comparing, um… 02:21:36.000 --> 02:21:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Dishes based on sun noise. 02:21:40.000 --> 02:21:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And of course, that's, you know, that's, uh, two operators, two different antennas. 02:21:45.000 --> 02:21:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, two different receivers. 02:21:48.000 --> 02:21:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You know, all sorts of differences, if you will. 02:21:51.000 --> 02:21:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And what I did here was, um, we've used the same receiver for. 02:21:56.000 --> 02:22:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: for all dishes, so it was easy to make a comparison. But it brings to light some things having to do with, uh. 02:22:03.000 --> 02:22:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: sun noise at low numbers that I wanted to present, so let's just go ahead… I want to… 02:22:09.000 --> 02:22:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We can skip that one there, because that's just the same noise meter slide. Skip that one. 02:22:15.000 --> 02:22:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this one, because we had talked about it. 02:22:18.000 --> 02:22:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Alright, here we go. Um… 02:22:22.000 --> 02:22:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The question is, is how do we compare sun noise readings? 02:22:26.000 --> 02:22:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Well, you know, if Bob was getting 20 dB of sun noise, and Al's getting 30 dB, you probably say, well. 02:22:33.000 --> 02:22:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Al's system is 10 dB better than the other guys. 02:22:36.000 --> 02:22:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, uh, for anything over 20 dB, that's probably true. 02:22:41.000 --> 02:22:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But when you start to… when you're making a sun noise measurement in dB. 02:22:47.000 --> 02:22:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You're really looking at signal plus noise over noise. That's what you're comparing. 02:22:52.000 --> 02:22:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You're, you're off the sun so you're measuring noise. 02:22:58.000 --> 02:23:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: When you go back onto the sun, you're measuring signal plus noise. 02:23:03.000 --> 02:23:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, when you take a look at this. 02:23:06.000 --> 02:23:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Signal plus noise to noise. 02:23:09.000 --> 02:23:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If you break it out, it's really signal over noise plus noise over noise, which is 1. 02:23:14.000 --> 02:23:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So therefore, signal-to-noise ratio, which is what we should be comparing. 02:23:20.000 --> 02:23:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Is signal plus noise to noise minus 1. 02:23:24.000 --> 02:23:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So keep in mind, signal plus noise to noise is what you measure when you're looking at the sun. 02:23:31.000 --> 02:23:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: When you want to compare. 02:23:33.000 --> 02:23:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: readings, you really need to be comparing signal-to-noise ratios. 02:23:39.000 --> 02:23:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If you go down to this table here. 02:23:42.000 --> 02:23:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You know, you can see that 20 dB of, we'll call it sun noise is real close to 19 point… 02:23:48.000 --> 02:23:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Well, it's 19.96 signal-to-noise ratio. You get down to 10 dB. 02:23:53.000 --> 02:23:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's still pretty close, 9.54. 02:23:58.000 --> 02:24:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But as you get down to, um… let's stop off here at 3 dB. If you're measuring. 02:24:03.000 --> 02:24:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 3 dB of sun noise. 02:24:06.000 --> 02:24:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That's 0 dB signal to noise. 02:24:09.000 --> 02:24:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That's because if you had 3 dB of sun noise, that meant that you had, um… 02:24:15.000 --> 02:24:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 3 dB. 02:24:17.000 --> 02:24:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: of noise, and another 3 dB of sun plus noise to noise, and in reality, they're the same level. 02:24:28.000 --> 02:24:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um… 02:24:30.000 --> 02:24:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The actual level of the sun is the same as the noise. 02:24:38.000 --> 02:24:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I guess is a better way of saying that. 02:24:40.000 --> 02:24:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, actually, 3 dB of sun noise means that the sun. 02:24:45.000 --> 02:24:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Noise is equivalent to the noise flow behind it. So the actual signal-to-noise ratio is 0 dB. They're the same. It's unity. 02:24:56.000 --> 02:25:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And they do add, because powers do add. Just like if you had two 1W signals. 02:25:02.000 --> 02:25:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you added them together, no losses, you're gonna get 2 watts, or 3 dB more. 02:25:08.000 --> 02:25:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And if you're only getting, say, 1 dB of sun noise, that's actually a minus 5.87 dB signal-to-noise ratio. 02:25:16.000 --> 02:25:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, you really need to compare. 02:25:18.000 --> 02:25:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: signal-to-noise ratios and not signal plus noise-to-noise ratios. And you can see that from. 02:25:24.000 --> 02:25:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: from that table. We'll go into some examples. 02:25:29.000 --> 02:25:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Go to the next one. 02:25:32.000 --> 02:25:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Here is a graph of that same. 02:25:36.000 --> 02:25:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Curve. Basically, at 20 dB or so, they're about equal. 10, they're pretty close. 02:25:42.000 --> 02:25:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 0 dB, uh, signal-to-noise ratio. 02:25:45.000 --> 02:25:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: They're, uh, that's like 3 dB of sun noise. And you get down here, if you're only measuring 1 dB of sun noise. 02:25:53.000 --> 02:25:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That's only, what, minus 5 dB or so, uh, signal-to-noise ratio. 02:26:00.000 --> 02:26:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We'll move on to the next one, Jim. 02:26:06.000 --> 02:26:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Here's just a couple of comparisons, or a couple of examples, if you will. 02:26:11.000 --> 02:26:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If station A is measuring 20 dB of sun noise, and station D is measuring only 10. 02:26:17.000 --> 02:26:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Then converting them back to signal-to-noise ratio. 02:26:20.000 --> 02:26:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: you get 10.42 dB, or change in sensitivity of 10.4 dB. 02:26:26.000 --> 02:26:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Now, if you're comparing station C, who is receiving 10 dB of sun noise. 02:26:31.000 --> 02:26:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: to comparing to station D, who's receiving only 3 dB of sun noise, the difference there is nearly 10 dB. 02:26:39.000 --> 02:26:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: For a 7 dB drop in, uh, in sun noise. 02:26:45.000 --> 02:26:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Alright, moving on… 02:26:49.000 --> 02:26:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: This is just an expanded scale, so we can, uh… 02:26:53.000 --> 02:26:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Move on from here. 02:26:59.000 --> 02:27:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Now, if you actually want to go through the math. 02:27:02.000 --> 02:27:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, this is basically what we're doing. If we're… 02:27:05.000 --> 02:27:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: If, uh, sun noise… 02:27:09.000 --> 02:27:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: from antenna one, it was 2 dB, and… 02:27:13.000 --> 02:27:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 4 dB for antenna 2, this is how we'd make the comparison. You take the 2 dB, you gotta convert it back to a ratio, so you divide by 10. 02:27:21.000 --> 02:27:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Take the inverse log. 02:27:23.000 --> 02:27:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Subtract 1.585, 10 log of that minus 2.33 dB. 02:27:28.000 --> 02:27:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So it's pretty simple in terms of the math, if you got a little scientific calculator. 02:27:33.000 --> 02:27:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the same with 4 dB. You divide 4 dB by 10, inverse log minus 1. 02:27:41.000 --> 02:27:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then you get a factor, a ratio, convert it to dB. 02:27:46.000 --> 02:27:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you got 1.8 dB, and he just subtracted 2. 02:27:49.000 --> 02:27:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And antenna 1 is basically receiving 4 dB better than antenna 2. 02:27:56.000 --> 02:28:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: you know, pretty simple math, but you gotta realize this is what you have to do when you have small dB numbers. 02:28:03.000 --> 02:28:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh, go ahead, Jim. 02:28:08.000 --> 02:28:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Alright, this is, um… 02:28:10.000 --> 02:28:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: These are some measurements that we made back in May of 01. They're at 24 GHz. 02:28:15.000 --> 02:28:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And hopefully they'll kind of send a point home a little bit here. 02:28:19.000 --> 02:28:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's the same noise figure, 2.4 dB. 02:28:23.000 --> 02:28:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this was connected to each one of these antennas. 02:28:27.000 --> 02:28:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And you can see the antenna listed over on the left. 02:28:33.000 --> 02:28:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And on a 12-inch commercial dish. 02:28:36.000 --> 02:28:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Measured 1.5 dB of sun noise. 02:28:40.000 --> 02:28:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Converting it to signal to noise is minus 3.84. 02:28:44.000 --> 02:28:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And we're gonna say that this is our reference, if you will. 02:28:49.000 --> 02:28:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And this is a theoretical gain. 02:28:53.000 --> 02:28:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And based on that, this is going to be our reference. So, we're gonna re… 02:28:58.000 --> 02:29:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Refer everything to the sun noise that we made with this antenna. 02:29:03.000 --> 02:29:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So basically, if you double the aperture, which is what we did here. 02:29:08.000 --> 02:29:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We're receiving 4.2 dB of sun noise. We convert it to signal-to-noise ratio. 02:29:15.000 --> 02:29:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then you compare them. 02:29:17.000 --> 02:29:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The difference is nearly 6 dB. That's exactly what it's supposed to be. You double the aperture, you're going to gain 6 dB. 02:29:24.000 --> 02:29:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Even though you only, uh, gained, um… 02:29:29.000 --> 02:29:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Well, let's see, you went from… yeah, you went from 1.5 to 4.2 dB of sun noise. 02:29:34.000 --> 02:29:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But in reality, that's almost 6 dB of gain. 02:29:38.000 --> 02:29:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And that's exactly where you want to be. 02:29:41.000 --> 02:29:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And we looked at some other ones here, like a pecan dish. 02:29:45.000 --> 02:29:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, uh, it's close, but not as good as the Maycom dish. 02:29:50.000 --> 02:29:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, um, Joel had brought his, uh, stuff down at the time, and we were looking at it. 02:29:56.000 --> 02:29:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And we made some comparisons, and his, uh… 02:29:59.000 --> 02:30:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Dual-band 10 and 24 gig feet on a 2-foot dish. 02:30:03.000 --> 02:30:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Came in at 5.64. 02:30:06.000 --> 02:30:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: gain over the 12-inch commercial, pretty close to the 24-inch, uh. 02:30:11.000 --> 02:30:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, Maycom. 02:30:13.000 --> 02:30:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Specifically designed for 24 GHz so the dual-band feed, uh, actually works pretty well. 02:30:21.000 --> 02:30:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then we had a 55-inch dish here, and of course it, uh… 02:30:26.000 --> 02:30:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It beat everything out. 02:30:28.000 --> 02:30:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: but it's actually a bigger dish, but when you look at these numbers right here. 02:30:32.000 --> 02:30:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It kind of gives you the idea or the impression that these numbers kind of make sense now, even though the sun noise. 02:30:39.000 --> 02:30:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Maybe threw you for a loop, because you would have thought, double the aperture, I should go from 1.5 dB. 02:30:46.000 --> 02:30:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: To, um, um, what, 1.56 dB of sun noise. 02:30:51.000 --> 02:30:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But in reality, it's only 4.2 dB, but that's all you could expect. 02:30:57.000 --> 02:31:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, on sun noise, but in reality, it's the 6 dB. 02:31:01.000 --> 02:31:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: difference that you're looking at due to the aperture. Every time you double your aperture, your gain goes up by 6 dB. 02:31:12.000 --> 02:31:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: All right, let's move on to the next one here, and I think that should be about it. 02:31:19.000 --> 02:31:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, we did some very similar numbers, uh, versus the older numbers. 02:31:25.000 --> 02:31:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Probably don't, um… 02:31:32.000 --> 02:31:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, these probably don't tell the story as well as the other ones do. 02:31:37.000 --> 02:31:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Mainly because we're looking at these… we're looking at antennas here that are all about the same size, but you get some idea. 02:31:43.000 --> 02:31:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, the sun noise, 1.5 dB with a 24-inch dish, 1.3 with a 30 inch. 02:31:49.000 --> 02:31:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 1.1 with a 24. 02:31:52.000 --> 02:31:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And even, you know.22 with a little, uh, uh, offset fed dish. 02:31:58.000 --> 02:32:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And when converting them back to signal-noise ratio, then you look at the difference in the gain. 02:32:04.000 --> 02:32:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, it looks like, um, yeah, you might say that the 30-inch dish I had here. 02:32:09.000 --> 02:32:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Was not as good as the 24-inch dish. 02:32:12.000 --> 02:32:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So this is the right way to make comparisons with sun noise, converting them back to signal-to-noise ratio. 02:32:18.000 --> 02:32:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and then look at the DV, the relative DVs. 02:32:21.000 --> 02:32:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And I always put this down for reference, because we weren't measuring… 02:32:26.000 --> 02:32:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We were just trying to get some difference, uh, an idea of the difference in performance of the, uh. 02:32:32.000 --> 02:32:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Of the various antennas and make comparisons. 02:32:37.000 --> 02:32:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I think that's all for that. 02:32:39.000 --> 02:32:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Jim? Can't remember what was after this one. 02:32:43.000 --> 02:32:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, let's… 02:32:45.000 --> 02:32:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Moving forward, I think Jim and I want to do some tests at 47 and 122 GHz. 02:32:51.000 --> 02:32:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I think stand by for those, uh… 02:32:54.000 --> 02:33:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: uh, events to happen. Especially, we'd like to do, uh, 47 and 122, because those are two bands that were. 02:33:02.000 --> 02:33:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Kind of highly motivated to work on, uh, at the moment. 02:33:07.000 --> 02:33:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Any, uh, questions, uh, on anything? 02:33:11.000 --> 02:33:22.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I have questions and comments. Yes. What about, uh… so when you're making these measurements, you're using the same receiving system. 02:33:22.000 --> 02:33:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the same frequency, uh, to make or compare all the different antennas. 02:33:27.000 --> 02:33:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Otherwise, wouldn't bandwidth and variations in the equipment that you're using make differences, too? 02:33:36.000 --> 02:33:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, this is just all hooking up a, uh… 02:33:39.000 --> 02:33:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I think we're using, like, a 1 meter cable from the transverter to each antenna. 02:33:46.000 --> 02:33:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay, and then the other thing is that the situation about how well the dish is eliminated. 02:33:53.000 --> 02:33:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Could play a role here too, right? How good your feet is coupled with your dish. 02:33:58.000 --> 02:34:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Correct, and we were making some adjustments based on the sun noise numbers that we were getting, from what I remember. 02:34:07.000 --> 02:34:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So you would get them reading, and then you would try to tune it up while you were doing it to make it more like what you thought it should be, I guess. 02:34:18.000 --> 02:34:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Except during the solar event. Right. 02:34:22.000 --> 02:34:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay. Do we know that? 02:34:30.000 --> 02:34:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Any other questions or comments from anybody? 02:34:36.000 --> 02:34:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Well, hopefully I didn't bore you to death, but uh… 02:34:40.000 --> 02:34:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You can, uh… I think Jim's got them up on the, uh, on our website, or we'll have them up there shortly. I know the first one is. 02:34:51.000 --> 02:34:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay, I stopped that video. Um, Bob, do you have any other comments on… 02:34:59.000 --> 02:35:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: At presentation. 02:35:02.000 --> 02:35:10.000 Bob N5BRG: Oh, I thought I enjoyed listening to it again, just like you said. I can listen to Al over and over again and still learn from him. 02:35:10.000 --> 02:35:12.000 Bob N5BRG: And, uh… 02:35:12.000 --> 02:35:17.000 Bob N5BRG: And then, you know, I'm sitting here thinking about the same things I thought about last time, though, too. It makes me wanna… 02:35:17.000 --> 02:35:23.000 Bob N5BRG: Get busy and, and, uh, get equipment working and go make my own measurements. 02:35:23.000 --> 02:35:29.000 Bob N5BRG: And uh… some of the stuff I can talk about later is related to astronomy. 02:35:29.000 --> 02:35:38.000 Bob N5BRG: And I participate in an astronomy group, and those guys are out there doing the same things, trying to figure out how to make a dish work better, and look at noise, and. 02:35:38.000 --> 02:35:42.000 Bob N5BRG: Things like that, so this is sort of a universal problem people have. 02:35:47.000 --> 02:35:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, Bob, if you wouldn't mind, um… 02:35:53.000 --> 02:35:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Why don't you go into what you have to say here, and show us what you've got. 02:35:56.000 --> 02:35:58.000 Bob N5BRG: Okay. 02:35:59.000 --> 02:36:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I think that's more timely than replaying another. 02:36:04.000 --> 02:36:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: stored video. 02:36:06.000 --> 02:36:09.000 Bob N5BRG: Okay, sure. Let me, uh… 02:36:09.000 --> 02:36:11.000 Bob N5BRG: Share my screen here. 02:36:15.000 --> 02:36:18.000 Bob N5BRG: I'm gonna try sharing my desktop, see if that… 02:36:18.000 --> 02:36:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Take your time. 02:36:23.000 --> 02:36:25.000 Bob N5BRG: Okay. Good. 02:36:23.000 --> 02:36:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I see the desktop? 02:36:25.000 --> 02:36:27.000 Bob N5BRG: Good. 02:36:27.000 --> 02:36:34.000 Bob N5BRG: So, it's funny, but some of the things I've been working on sort of dovetail with what's being talked about today. 02:36:35.000 --> 02:36:40.000 Bob N5BRG: What I need to do is make sure that I have this as big as I can make it. 02:36:41.000 --> 02:36:44.000 Bob N5BRG: And centered as well as I can. 02:36:44.000 --> 02:36:46.000 Bob N5BRG: Oh, it keeps… 02:36:45.000 --> 02:36:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Can you make it fill the full screen? 02:36:48.000 --> 02:36:50.000 Bob N5BRG: Yeah. 02:36:51.000 --> 02:36:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Much better. 02:36:52.000 --> 02:36:58.000 Bob N5BRG: It sort of wants to jump around. I mean, I don't understand that exactly. But, uh, what I'm doing is. 02:36:59.000 --> 02:37:08.000 Bob N5BRG: related to the astronomy side of things, the guys there… there's one fella in particular that's spent a lot of time developing some software. 02:37:08.000 --> 02:37:12.000 Bob N5BRG: That, uh, analyzes data that you're receiving with your dish. 02:37:12.000 --> 02:37:20.000 Bob N5BRG: And, uh, he was lamenting the fact that he wanted to be able to switch back and forth to a 50 ohm reference, just like Al was. 02:37:20.000 --> 02:37:22.000 Bob N5BRG: Talking about earlier. 02:37:22.000 --> 02:37:27.000 Bob N5BRG: And uh… and so I, uh, proceeded to design this circuit. 02:37:27.000 --> 02:37:35.000 Bob N5BRG: That essentially takes an input from a dish or an antenna, and then it has a filter on the front end. 02:37:35.000 --> 02:37:40.000 Bob N5BRG: And I picked this particular filter, which is a 1.420 gig filter. 02:37:40.000 --> 02:37:45.000 Bob N5BRG: to get the H1 signal in astronomy. 02:37:45.000 --> 02:37:52.000 Bob N5BRG: And then I'm feeding that into this switch here that will switch between a 50 ohm resistor. 02:37:53.000 --> 02:37:55.000 Bob N5BRG: And a, uh, an LNA. 02:37:56.000 --> 02:38:02.000 Bob N5BRG: And so, you know, there was a fellow named Fritz Dickey that did this in astronomy. 02:38:02.000 --> 02:38:11.000 Bob N5BRG: Back in the 50s, where he was switching back and forth, and that's essentially what this is going to do, is just switch back and forth to a reference. 02:38:11.000 --> 02:38:14.000 Bob N5BRG: And in astronomy, you're trying to determine. 02:38:14.000 --> 02:38:22.000 Bob N5BRG: You know, the difference in a signal, which is, it's really like a carrier, or similar to a carrier at a particular. 02:38:22.000 --> 02:38:26.000 Bob N5BRG: Frequency, and noise in your system. 02:38:26.000 --> 02:38:32.000 Bob N5BRG: And RFI that may be at play in your area, and it's the same with. 02:38:32.000 --> 02:38:35.000 Bob N5BRG: With the microwave operation. 02:38:35.000 --> 02:38:37.000 Bob N5BRG: But, uh… 02:38:37.000 --> 02:38:42.000 Bob N5BRG: I've got this set up with a power supply. 02:38:42.000 --> 02:38:46.000 Bob N5BRG: Which, let me see if I can go into this sheet here. 02:38:46.000 --> 02:38:51.000 Bob N5BRG: I… I wanted to include, uh, what I'll call a low-noise power supply. 02:38:51.000 --> 02:39:02.000 Bob N5BRG: So I've… most of the time, the guys in astronomy are trying to power their things from, like, a USB plug or a computer that they happen to have with them. 02:39:02.000 --> 02:39:07.000 Bob N5BRG: And they end up with a lot of noise from switching noise and things like that. 02:39:07.000 --> 02:39:10.000 Bob N5BRG: So I've… I've included this, uh… 02:39:10.000 --> 02:39:19.000 Bob N5BRG: quietening system, or a system to try to remove all of that to get the purest 5-volt level signal that I can. 02:39:19.000 --> 02:39:28.000 Bob N5BRG: And the second part of this schematic is that the power coming into it, the voltage, is going to come in down the coax feed line. 02:39:29.000 --> 02:39:34.000 Bob N5BRG: And it… and it's going to jump between 6 volts and 7 volts. 02:39:34.000 --> 02:39:37.000 Bob N5BRG: and so I've got this detector circuit here. 02:39:37.000 --> 02:39:49.000 Bob N5BRG: To watch that voltage, and when it makes the transition, it's going to provide the control voltage needed on that previous slide to make that switch go to the 50 ohm load. 02:39:50.000 --> 02:39:55.000 Bob N5BRG: Uh, now, when you do these things, uh… 02:39:55.000 --> 02:40:02.000 Bob N5BRG: hams or people involved all have different ideas about the way they want to approach them, so I try to. 02:40:02.000 --> 02:40:09.000 Bob N5BRG: make something work for multiple people, and I've included this circuit here, which is just a relay. 02:40:09.000 --> 02:40:18.000 Bob N5BRG: To give you a dry contact here that you could do something else with externally while monitoring this incoming voltage. 02:40:19.000 --> 02:40:21.000 Bob N5BRG: And so, uh… 02:40:22.000 --> 02:40:25.000 Bob N5BRG: And that something else might be, uh… 02:40:25.000 --> 02:40:33.000 Bob N5BRG: This, I put in this preamplifier here partially because that, you mentioned a filter from NOLAC earlier. 02:40:33.000 --> 02:40:39.000 Bob N5BRG: The NOLAC people make a preamplifier and a filter. 02:40:39.000 --> 02:40:44.000 Bob N5BRG: That's useful for radio astronomy, but you can't get them right now for whatever reason, they haven't. 02:40:45.000 --> 02:40:47.000 Bob N5BRG: Been able to supply them, so… 02:40:47.000 --> 02:40:51.000 Bob N5BRG: I thought, okay, well, this would cover all of those needs. 02:40:51.000 --> 02:40:56.000 Bob N5BRG: But this LNA is where I get into the issue about the RF. 02:40:56.000 --> 02:41:00.000 Bob N5BRG: Uh, PC board needing to be, uh… 02:41:01.000 --> 02:41:03.000 Bob N5BRG: Designed a little bit differently. 02:41:03.000 --> 02:41:05.000 Bob N5BRG: And, uh… 02:41:05.000 --> 02:41:16.000 Bob N5BRG: Before I go to that, I'm going to tell you about this other box over here, which is… this box is the remote box that I've designed to be operated by, like a, uh… 02:41:16.000 --> 02:41:19.000 Bob N5BRG: Raspberry Pi, like a Pi Zero. 02:41:19.000 --> 02:41:23.000 Bob N5BRG: Which is, you know, a $15 computer at, uh… 02:41:23.000 --> 02:41:25.000 Bob N5BRG: Micro Center. 02:41:25.000 --> 02:41:28.000 Bob N5BRG: And if I have this set up on a… 02:41:29.000 --> 02:41:39.000 Bob N5BRG: board, they call it, so it'll plug right into that guy. Then I've got a stepping type of regulator here that will produce that 6 volts and 7 volts. 02:41:40.000 --> 02:41:51.000 Bob N5BRG: depending on what you do with the reference, I've just put a device here to switch the reference levels so that it'll pump out either 6 volts or 7 volts out there to the, uh… 02:41:52.000 --> 02:41:53.000 Bob N5BRG: To the device. 02:41:54.000 --> 02:41:56.000 Bob N5BRG: Okay, so now… 02:41:56.000 --> 02:42:02.000 Bob N5BRG: What I'm doing with this stuff is I'm building, actually, 4 different PC boards. 02:42:02.000 --> 02:42:06.000 Bob N5BRG: And so the… the, uh… 02:42:06.000 --> 02:42:13.000 Bob N5BRG: the regulator stuff and the hat for the pie would be all on just an FR4 board. 02:42:13.000 --> 02:42:18.000 Bob N5BRG: But this filter circuit and this preamplifier. 02:42:18.000 --> 02:42:23.000 Bob N5BRG: would be on, ideally, on a RF material board. 02:42:23.000 --> 02:42:25.000 Bob N5BRG: And so, uh… 02:42:26.000 --> 02:42:28.000 Bob N5BRG: If I shrink this down… 02:42:28.000 --> 02:42:31.000 Bob N5BRG: And I open this sheet… 02:42:32.000 --> 02:42:35.000 Bob N5BRG: You can see my board layouts here. 02:42:35.000 --> 02:42:49.000 Bob N5BRG: I forgot I had all of these. I also have included a shield board, and so what I've done is sort of what… it's funny, Jim mentioned earlier about Millmax. I've set this up to take some pins. 02:42:49.000 --> 02:42:59.000 Bob N5BRG: That will fit right in these holes in this board, and then the top level board, which will be this board, will have a PIN that has an 18 thousandths diameter. 02:42:59.000 --> 02:43:04.000 Bob N5BRG: PIN sticking out, so these will just sandwich together and all plug together. 02:43:04.000 --> 02:43:07.000 Bob N5BRG: And, and then the RF… 02:43:07.000 --> 02:43:12.000 Bob N5BRG: Line here is providing the input to the, uh… 02:43:12.000 --> 02:43:16.000 Bob N5BRG: to the power board, so it's tapped off of that RF signal. 02:43:16.000 --> 02:43:21.000 Bob N5BRG: And then this big long block here is the filter, which I've… 02:43:21.000 --> 02:43:27.000 Bob N5BRG: I've designed this with a filter from Minicircuits, but Minicircuits has, uh. 02:43:27.000 --> 02:43:31.000 Bob N5BRG: Multiple filter types you can pick from. 02:43:31.000 --> 02:43:37.000 Bob N5BRG: And the one that I've thrown in here is a point, or let's see, 0.9 dB. 02:43:37.000 --> 02:43:39.000 Bob N5BRG: Loss filter. 02:43:39.000 --> 02:43:45.000 Bob N5BRG: And there is another one that they have. This filter here is about a $70 filter. 02:43:45.000 --> 02:43:54.000 Bob N5BRG: There's another one they offer that's, I don't know, $7 or $8, that has a 2 dB loss. So I've got another board that's not in this. 02:43:55.000 --> 02:43:57.000 Bob N5BRG: Collection here. 02:43:57.000 --> 02:44:01.000 Bob N5BRG: To, uh, to support that other filter, also. 02:44:02.000 --> 02:44:08.000 Bob N5BRG: And so then it get, it will get to be a situation of what do you do as a. 02:44:08.000 --> 02:44:12.000 Bob N5BRG: Uh, user, are you willing to spend the extra money. 02:44:12.000 --> 02:44:23.000 Bob N5BRG: to save a dB or two, and in astronomy, you know, that's going to mean the difference of, can you pick up a signal that you couldn't pick up otherwise? 02:44:23.000 --> 02:44:29.000 Bob N5BRG: People are not just looking at the H1 level in the Milky Way, they're also trying to look at. 02:44:29.000 --> 02:44:33.000 Bob N5BRG: Galaxies and integrating over long periods of time. 02:44:34.000 --> 02:44:39.000 Bob N5BRG: But I got into some interesting things, too, with, uh, with Cockhead. 02:44:40.000 --> 02:44:48.000 Bob N5BRG: First of all, I'm… I'm on the bleeding edge here. I'm using 9.99, which I started using some time ago, and what that is, is they… 02:44:48.000 --> 02:44:53.000 Bob N5BRG: It's like the developer's version, where they roll out a new version every night or two. 02:44:53.000 --> 02:45:03.000 Bob N5BRG: But, uh, they had some features in it that I really just felt like I had to have, and I upgraded, and then after I did upgrade, I found out you couldn't go back. 02:45:03.000 --> 02:45:08.000 Bob N5BRG: The only way you can go back is if they do a really major upgrade, and then I can finally. 02:45:08.000 --> 02:45:11.000 Bob N5BRG: Get out of the leading edge. 02:45:12.000 --> 02:45:17.000 Bob N5BRG: But I wanted to lay this out as a sort of a stripline design. 02:45:17.000 --> 02:45:24.000 Bob N5BRG: and some of the critical RS stuff, and to do it, to get the proper impedance, you needed to be running. 02:45:24.000 --> 02:45:27.000 Bob N5BRG: Uh, like a. 02:45:27.000 --> 02:45:31.000 Bob N5BRG: Trace width of 18 thousandths of an inch. 02:45:31.000 --> 02:45:37.000 Bob N5BRG: And then you come down to the device package for the LNA, and it's got smaller. 02:45:37.000 --> 02:45:42.000 Bob N5BRG: With pads, so ideally what you would do is have a tapered. 02:45:42.000 --> 02:45:45.000 Bob N5BRG: There's a connection there between those traces. 02:45:45.000 --> 02:45:50.000 Bob N5BRG: And uh… and the only way you can do that, really, is to go into CACAD. 02:45:51.000 --> 02:45:55.000 Bob N5BRG: And change the individual geometry of each one of these connections. 02:45:55.000 --> 02:46:01.000 Bob N5BRG: And I'm heavily using, uh, ChatGPT now, it's, it's become my buddy. 02:46:02.000 --> 02:46:06.000 Bob N5BRG: that's with me all the time, it feels like, when I'm working on projects. 02:46:07.000 --> 02:46:12.000 Bob N5BRG: And ChatGPT laid all this out for me, laid out these little tapers. 02:46:13.000 --> 02:46:18.000 Bob N5BRG: I handed ChatGPT this PC board layout with all the lines in it. 02:46:18.000 --> 02:46:25.000 Bob N5BRG: And, and told it I wanted these tapers in there, and it did it for me and handed me back the board layout. Now. 02:46:25.000 --> 02:46:30.000 Bob N5BRG: I make that sound like it was real easy, but it probably took 1 or 2 days, maybe 3 days. 02:46:30.000 --> 02:46:34.000 Bob N5BRG: Working back and forth to finally get that. 02:46:34.000 --> 02:46:36.000 Bob N5BRG: Uh, working properly. 02:46:37.000 --> 02:46:46.000 Bob N5BRG: But, uh, and then… and then all of this stuff on the top stays the same to go to a second board and drop in that other filter. 02:46:47.000 --> 02:46:51.000 Bob N5BRG: Let's see, and then down here below… 02:46:52.000 --> 02:46:54.000 Bob N5BRG: This is a, uh… 02:46:54.000 --> 02:47:05.000 Bob N5BRG: a board just to do the DC injection. So, coming off of this Raspberry Pi board will be that voltage, and I've just got this set up to put a wire in here, essentially. 02:47:05.000 --> 02:47:12.000 Bob N5BRG: With a couple of SMA connectors on it to get the power into that line. 02:47:13.000 --> 02:47:19.000 Bob N5BRG: And, uh, once again, you get into, uh, what, what you'd like to have is an ideal. 02:47:19.000 --> 02:47:24.000 Bob N5BRG: Impedience match between this to not cause a bump in impedance here. 02:47:24.000 --> 02:47:26.000 Bob N5BRG: And, uh… 02:47:27.000 --> 02:47:32.000 Bob N5BRG: And so I decided to just experiment with different line widths and see what it looked like. 02:47:32.000 --> 02:47:40.000 Bob N5BRG: And the ideal line over here at FR4 60,000 stick is something like 3 millimeters wide, so even this one is not. 02:47:40.000 --> 02:47:45.000 Bob N5BRG: It's not going to be as wide as it should be to get the best match. 02:47:46.000 --> 02:47:48.000 Bob N5BRG: Now, that match can vary. 02:47:48.000 --> 02:47:54.000 Bob N5BRG: Kent asked me earlier what kind of, uh, dielectric constant that material has. 02:47:55.000 --> 02:47:58.000 Bob N5BRG: It has a dielectric constant of 3.38. 02:47:58.000 --> 02:48:04.000 Bob N5BRG: And his… he said he had some 4350, that has a dielectric constant of 3.48. 02:48:05.000 --> 02:48:11.000 Bob N5BRG: And so then the next question is, what thickness is the material that he has available or that he uses? 02:48:11.000 --> 02:48:18.000 Bob N5BRG: Because that's the other piece of this, it will affect that equation for what those lines and spaces need to be. 02:48:20.000 --> 02:48:21.000 Bob N5BRG: Um… 02:48:22.000 --> 02:48:27.000 Bob N5BRG: So, that's pretty much what I was going to talk about. The, the, uh… 02:48:31.000 --> 02:48:38.000 Bob N5BRG: Let's see… and like I said, my approach, I use this for PCB. 02:48:38.000 --> 02:48:46.000 Bob N5BRG: And I have this PC board I'm holding up on my video side over here at 6x10 inch, and I put multiple. 02:48:46.000 --> 02:48:53.000 Bob N5BRG: projects on this board, so that I get, oh, 6 or 8 different designs at once, so… 02:48:53.000 --> 02:49:00.000 Bob N5BRG: I get in this mode where I'm trying to complete all my designs, and then I just, in KiCAD, I paste all these together. 02:49:00.000 --> 02:49:11.000 Bob N5BRG: and make it look like a 6x10 inch board, and then I have a shear that I bought from Harbor Freight that when I get the board in, I can shear them down into individual boards. 02:49:11.000 --> 02:49:16.000 Bob N5BRG: And then I spend a month or two probably testing and debugging. 02:49:17.000 --> 02:49:27.000 Bob N5BRG: these things, trying to find out, you know, what was wrong, and I make mistakes, and I fix the PC board and go back out and do it again on another build. 02:49:27.000 --> 02:49:29.000 Bob N5BRG: At a later time. 02:49:32.000 --> 02:49:38.000 Bob N5BRG: So, with that, I'll stop talking and answer any questions or take any comments. 02:49:43.000 --> 02:49:46.000 Ben Lowe: Uh, Bob, this is Ben, K4QF. 02:49:46.000 --> 02:49:48.000 Bob N5BRG: Yes, sir. 02:49:48.000 --> 02:49:53.000 Ben Lowe: Is that Dicky, the same guy that developed the Dicky fix for radar systems? 02:49:54.000 --> 02:49:59.000 Bob N5BRG: It probably is. I'm not familiar with what you're saying for sure, but uh… 02:49:59.000 --> 02:50:01.000 Bob N5BRG: It probably is. 02:50:04.000 --> 02:50:06.000 Ben Lowe: Okay, thank you. 02:50:05.000 --> 02:50:12.000 Bob N5BRG: I have a book on radar, the development of radar. I could look in there and send you a note later and let you know, Ben. 02:50:13.000 --> 02:50:15.000 Don VE6HQ: Oh, Bob, Dan, uh… 02:50:13.000 --> 02:50:15.000 Ben Lowe: I was working. 02:50:15.000 --> 02:50:25.000 Don VE6HQ: I'm sorry, this is Dong, V6HG. The answer is yes. Dickie was, you know, one of the pioneers of radio astronomy, and that switching system. 02:50:17.000 --> 02:50:19.000 Bob N5BRG: Yes. 02:50:26.000 --> 02:50:30.000 Don VE6HQ: Well, you know, that he developed, uh, was primarily… 02:50:30.000 --> 02:50:42.000 Don VE6HQ: Focused on, uh, trying to take gain variations of the amplifiers, uh, when they were measuring different, uh, astronomy, uh. 02:50:42.000 --> 02:50:47.000 Don VE6HQ: targets or sources. And so, switching back between a constant. 02:50:47.000 --> 02:50:49.000 Don VE6HQ: you know, uh… 02:50:49.000 --> 02:50:56.000 Don VE6HQ: Uh, source, there's 290 degrees nominal temperature, and then the sky temperature. Let them… 02:50:56.000 --> 02:51:03.000 Don VE6HQ: Uh, take out their amplifier gain fluctuations over their observation time. 02:51:03.000 --> 02:51:11.000 Don VE6HQ: And so, it was just a real milestone in radio astronomy. Sorry, Bob, for that divergence there. 02:51:11.000 --> 02:51:19.000 Bob N5BRG: No, that's… that's wonderful. Yeah, the interesting thing is that the progress of radio astronomy has been all about how to separate. 02:51:19.000 --> 02:51:23.000 Bob N5BRG: What's really a signal from noise? 02:51:23.000 --> 02:51:28.000 Bob N5BRG: And it's the same in weak signal work, trying to find out how you can get the best. 02:51:28.000 --> 02:51:31.000 Bob N5BRG: Performance you can out of your rig. 02:51:31.000 --> 02:51:37.000 Bob N5BRG: And the other interesting thing that I've learned going forward in radio astronomy is that. 02:51:37.000 --> 02:51:48.000 Bob N5BRG: Like, when Dickie was working in the 50s, he had a certain amount of problems with RFI and other things, and all those problems had progressed as time has gone on. We've got. 02:51:48.000 --> 02:51:53.000 Bob N5BRG: Now we've got satellites to contend with that are getting to be a bigger and bigger issue, but uh… 02:51:53.000 --> 02:51:59.000 Bob N5BRG: They've also moved up in frequency where a lot of work is done today and. 02:51:59.000 --> 02:52:05.000 Bob N5BRG: In the, uh, up to 250, 240, 250 gig. 02:52:05.000 --> 02:52:11.000 Bob N5BRG: And they have different… essentially what they're doing is looking at the chemistry of atoms in space. 02:52:11.000 --> 02:52:16.000 Bob N5BRG: That happen to emit spectral lines at different frequencies, and so. 02:52:18.000 --> 02:52:25.000 Bob N5BRG: The capability of radio astronomy has is continuing to improve. 02:52:25.000 --> 02:52:27.000 Bob N5BRG: Today, even. 02:52:27.000 --> 02:52:29.000 Bob N5BRG: Because of that. 02:52:30.000 --> 02:52:40.000 Ben Lowe: Yeah, 30 years ago, I was working with Sandia on a missile detector radar, and they incorporated a Dickey fix in their radar, and I had never heard of it. That's… 02:52:41.000 --> 02:52:46.000 Ben Lowe: The first and probably the only time I've ever heard of the Dick effect for radar systems. 02:53:00.000 --> 02:53:02.000 Bob N5BRG: That's all I have, I guess. 02:53:02.000 --> 02:53:05.000 Bob N5BRG: You want to go ahead, Jim? 02:53:36.000 --> 02:53:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Thank you. Bye. 02:53:44.000 --> 02:53:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I assume that you could probably put something together every single month to keep us up. It's… 02:53:52.000 --> 02:53:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Kind of in track with what you're doing over there. 02:53:58.000 --> 02:54:00.000 Bob N5BRG: Sure. 02:54:03.000 --> 02:54:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You're certainly one of the more active developers. 02:54:09.000 --> 02:54:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Of, uh, different things that, uh, have application with what the rest of us are doing. 02:54:21.000 --> 02:54:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, we'll come back to the agenda and just finish out here, because I think it's getting late, and. 02:54:27.000 --> 02:54:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, do we have any other show and tell from any other members? 02:54:56.000 --> 02:55:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay, let's just go through, um, how the calendar looks. 02:55:01.000 --> 02:55:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I heard that we might see some Leonids, uh, meteors tonight. 02:55:07.000 --> 02:55:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, and that is the next thing that happens is this annual meteor shower. 02:55:16.000 --> 02:55:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Next weekend, um… 02:55:19.000 --> 02:55:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: There's a couple of us that are planning to get out and check out some locations. 02:55:25.000 --> 02:55:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, north of North Dallas. 02:55:28.000 --> 02:55:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I put the locations in here. 02:55:33.000 --> 02:55:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then, as we get to the end of December, we've got a couple of other locations that we want to do a checkout on. We welcome anyone that wants to ride along. 02:55:45.000 --> 02:55:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, and just do the observation. 02:55:50.000 --> 02:55:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Anyway, these are some locations that would probably produce 24 and 47 GHz contacts. 02:55:58.000 --> 02:56:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 10 GHz certainly, but at the 31st, which is the end of the year, that's the last day for the 47 GHz DX cumulative contest. 02:56:09.000 --> 02:56:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So, any, um… 02:56:12.000 --> 02:56:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: locations we haven't activated, we want to have them done by then, so that we can turn those results in. 02:56:21.000 --> 02:56:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: in January, um, we're planning… 02:56:26.000 --> 02:56:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, a mad day at the 3rd. 02:56:30.000 --> 02:56:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then another Zoom Meeting on the 10th. 02:56:34.000 --> 02:56:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I would solicit your presentations. 02:56:40.000 --> 02:56:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 16th and 17th is the annual Cowtown Hamfest. 02:56:46.000 --> 02:56:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: There will be presentations. 02:56:49.000 --> 02:56:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, from the club, put on there, uh… 02:56:54.000 --> 02:56:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Usually, it will consist of… 02:56:58.000 --> 02:57:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, Kent, the WA5JVJB, and, uh, myself. 02:57:05.000 --> 02:57:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: possibly others that will just go through the how to get started in 10 GHz. 02:57:10.000 --> 02:57:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Or on microwave. 02:57:13.000 --> 02:57:16.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And then, of course, it's a great ham fest. 02:57:19.000 --> 02:57:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The VHF contest is on the 17th through the 19th. 02:57:26.000 --> 02:57:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I put the winter field day on here. 02:57:30.000 --> 02:57:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Gotta turn down the volume on my headset. Um, and I did this because I had some inquiries. 02:57:38.000 --> 02:57:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, as to if there would be… 02:57:41.000 --> 02:57:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: low and mid-microwave activity on that day, and I don't think it's been on many of our calendars. 02:57:49.000 --> 02:57:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, before now, but uh… 02:57:52.000 --> 02:57:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: There are some groups to the south of us that are going to come within DFW range. 02:57:59.000 --> 02:58:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And so… 02:58:01.000 --> 02:58:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: might be some more to come on this as we get into January, where we could help support these rovers. 02:58:09.000 --> 02:58:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That are in that, you're gonna… they're gonna run 1296, 2304. 02:58:21.000 --> 02:58:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: These are our perpetual items. I'll let you read through that list. We read them out, uh, routinely, but the main one is the NTMS lunch. 02:58:30.000 --> 02:58:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, every Tuesday, 11.30 a.m, Texas Smokehouse Barbecue in Richardson. 02:58:37.000 --> 02:58:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, and probably call out the Hootal net, uh, that is gonna be another one tonight on 50.125, called by Al. 02:58:46.000 --> 02:58:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: W5RLG. 02:58:55.000 --> 02:59:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, for old business, um, there is a beacon party, uh, planned for Christmas week. I don't think those folks are online today. 02:59:05.000 --> 02:59:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, but, uh, I know that Al and Wes had spoke up at the last meeting. 02:59:12.000 --> 02:59:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: About this, uh, party that would travel to Denton and work on the beacons. 02:59:18.000 --> 02:59:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: There. Um, next item is a microgrant from Irving. 02:59:25.000 --> 02:59:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, club, and that has been, uh, in progress. 02:59:32.000 --> 02:59:35.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I listed this under new business. 02:59:35.000 --> 02:59:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We made an application to Zoom to lower our rate based on our non-profit. 02:59:41.000 --> 02:59:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Organization status, and they denied that. 02:59:46.000 --> 02:59:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I plan to reapply. 02:59:50.000 --> 02:59:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I don't know the criteria that we need to meet, although initially it was just non-profit status. 02:59:58.000 --> 03:00:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And yet they denied us to lower our rate. That's one of our… I think it's the second highest thing that we pay for. 03:00:07.000 --> 03:00:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it would be good if they would lower our rate. 03:00:14.000 --> 03:00:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Society membership dues are due. We're at the end of the year. 03:00:18.000 --> 03:00:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I'm working to try to send an email that will actually have the link. 03:00:25.000 --> 03:00:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: to the PayPal switch, so that you can just simply click on the link in the email to renew your dues. 03:00:34.000 --> 03:00:41.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I have asked Wes for a list of paid members and donors so I can compile that for January. 03:00:42.000 --> 03:00:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Is there any other old business to… or new business to discuss? 03:00:48.000 --> 03:00:51.000 Ben Lowe: Uh, Jim, I have one other comment. 03:00:53.000 --> 03:00:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Ben. 03:00:54.000 --> 03:01:03.000 Ben Lowe: from the, uh, microwave update activity, and this had never occurred to me that people could work on a VUCC from a… 03:01:04.000 --> 03:01:09.000 Ben Lowe: portable location. I always tried to get VECC from home, which I finally did on. 03:01:09.000 --> 03:01:18.000 Ben Lowe: 10 GHz, but I thought if you can do it from a portable location, maybe I should go back and look at portable locations. So, there's a… 03:01:19.000 --> 03:01:24.000 Ben Lowe: Mountain north of Oak Ridge, Tennessee, about 10 miles, named Windrock Mountain. 03:01:24.000 --> 03:01:32.000 Ben Lowe: And it is 18 miles from a 4 corner grid corner in Knoxville, Tennessee, line of sight. 03:01:32.000 --> 03:01:38.000 Ben Lowe: So I thought, where's the next… the next, uh, fifth grid for that, and… 03:01:38.000 --> 03:01:47.000 Ben Lowe: So, I looked at the, uh, Covenant College on Lookout Mountain, just south of Chattanooga, Tennessee, that's in the next grid, and it is 99 miles. 03:01:48.000 --> 03:01:57.000 Ben Lowe: But it is strictly line of sight between Windrock Mountain and Lookout Mountain south of Chattanooga, so we're getting ready to… 03:01:57.000 --> 03:02:03.000 Ben Lowe: try to organize a… a, uh, VUCC party somewhere, and then I took a look at, uh. 03:02:04.000 --> 03:02:11.000 Ben Lowe: Chehaw Mountain in Alabama, which is 2,400 feet, and it's about 38 or 40 miles from a. 03:02:11.000 --> 03:02:16.000 Ben Lowe: Great corner in Gadsden, Alabama, and again, line of sight. So then I looked. 03:02:17.000 --> 03:02:25.000 Ben Lowe: south of Chihall Mountain to see where the 5th grid would be, and that's about 38 or 40 miles south, and again, line of sight, so… 03:02:25.000 --> 03:02:31.000 Ben Lowe: I'm hoping that we can hang some more wallpaper for our operators in this area. 03:02:37.000 --> 03:02:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, that sounds like a lot of homework, Ben, and I appreciate that, because I've done the same thing, and I sent out an email, uh. 03:02:47.000 --> 03:02:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Soliciting for volunteers or… 03:02:52.000 --> 03:02:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: participants that would be willing to go west to the Lincoln National Forest. 03:02:58.000 --> 03:03:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I got one response… 03:03:00.000 --> 03:03:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, and I had to visit with somebody last week that said they were interested, so there's 3 of us that would go to the West. 03:03:11.000 --> 03:03:15.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, and I've already been out there and inspected it myself. 03:03:16.000 --> 03:03:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, and there is a, uh, 10,000 foot high mountain. 03:03:22.000 --> 03:03:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: location that has a Vista to 5 grid locations, so there's… there's a magic four. 03:03:31.000 --> 03:03:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Corner location, and then there's the 5th grid that's about 60 miles away, but line of sight, so… 03:03:38.000 --> 03:03:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'm doing the same homework on my side, uh, looking to gather some, uh, NTMS folks that would go out to the West and. 03:03:48.000 --> 03:03:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: be prepared, probably with 10 and 24, maybe 47 GHz and get VUCC. 03:03:55.000 --> 03:04:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Would you, um, keep us in touch with what you're doing? 03:04:00.000 --> 03:04:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Out there to the east from us. 03:04:13.000 --> 03:04:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I think Ben went away, but anyway, I'm sure he will jump back in there, but that would be interesting to see what they're doing to the east on a VUCC for microwave bands. 03:04:26.000 --> 03:04:30.000 Bob N5BRG: Jim, I can show you one more thing real quick, if you… if you like. 03:04:30.000 --> 03:04:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. 03:04:37.000 --> 03:04:39.000 Bob N5BRG: I, uh… 03:04:42.000 --> 03:04:48.000 Bob N5BRG: Let's see… I operate these, uh, meteor cameras here locally also. 03:04:48.000 --> 03:04:57.000 Bob N5BRG: and uh… there is a thing out there called Global Meteor Network, which you can get this page I'm looking at if you just do a GMN. 03:04:58.000 --> 03:05:00.000 Bob N5BRG: space status. 03:05:00.000 --> 03:05:02.000 Bob N5BRG: And it shows you the meteor. 03:05:02.000 --> 03:05:12.000 Bob N5BRG: activity that you can look at daily. And my cameras here in North Texas are listed in here under the Texas cameras, for instance. 03:05:12.000 --> 03:05:17.000 Bob N5BRG: And if you click on these screens, you get different, uh, sort of results. 03:05:18.000 --> 03:05:23.000 Bob N5BRG: But this shows you how many meteors that were present here at my location last night. 03:05:24.000 --> 03:05:30.000 Bob N5BRG: Where the ones with, uh, that look like dotted lines, those are not meteors, those are airplanes. 03:05:30.000 --> 03:05:36.000 Bob N5BRG: But there is some AI software that sorts out all the airplane traffic that went over. 03:05:37.000 --> 03:05:43.000 Bob N5BRG: And then the arcs, or the stars, but every one of these lines like this is a meteor coming through. 03:05:44.000 --> 03:05:53.000 Bob N5BRG: And if you play around with this webpage a little bit, you can go down to the bottom, and it shows you the different meteor showers and what the activity is. 03:05:53.000 --> 03:05:56.000 Bob N5BRG: So, if you want to have a feel for… 03:05:56.000 --> 03:06:04.000 Bob N5BRG: Uh, like, time of day, or what your possibility is of getting meteor scattered, then this is a good place to look at it. 03:06:03.000 --> 03:06:05.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Removable meet. 03:06:05.000 --> 03:06:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Wow. 03:06:08.000 --> 03:06:14.000 Bob N5BRG: I've got 4 cameras operating here, looking in all 4 directions, and a friend of mine has some up at the… 03:06:15.000 --> 03:06:20.000 Bob N5BRG: Texas Astronomy site in Oklahoma also, so we sort of triangulate. 03:06:21.000 --> 03:06:23.000 Bob N5BRG: our activity. 03:06:22.000 --> 03:06:26.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Are those, uh, all Sky cameras, or something else? 03:06:25.000 --> 03:06:31.000 Bob N5BRG: Not all Sky, they're… they're just, uh, low-cost Chinese cameras. 03:06:31.000 --> 03:06:32.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Gotcha. 03:06:31.000 --> 03:06:36.000 Bob N5BRG: But with multiple of them, you can get most of the sky. 03:06:35.000 --> 03:06:37.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. Right. 03:06:36.000 --> 03:06:38.000 Barry VE4MA: What was that link again? 03:06:37.000 --> 03:06:41.000 Bob N5BRG: It's called Global Meteor Network. 03:06:42.000 --> 03:06:50.000 Bob N5BRG: and so if you just do a… I can do a search for GMN space status, but it may be because I've done it a lot and it's in my. 03:06:50.000 --> 03:06:58.000 Bob N5BRG: browser, but I think if you just… you could do a search for Global Meteor network space status. 03:06:58.000 --> 03:07:00.000 Bob N5BRG: And you should get that page. 03:07:01.000 --> 03:07:06.000 Bob N5BRG: That was a software package done by a volunteer. All this stuff is people that are. 03:07:06.000 --> 03:07:11.000 Bob N5BRG: We're feeding the data back into research, but it's all volunteer-type stuff. 03:07:16.000 --> 03:07:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Good stuff. 03:07:18.000 --> 03:07:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: You know, I have, uh, 7 kids, lots of grandkids. 03:07:23.000 --> 03:07:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And I've got, uh, 2 of my youngest daughters, Izzy. 03:07:28.000 --> 03:07:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: and Lila, that just love to look at the sky. 03:07:35.000 --> 03:07:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, uh, I will share this. 03:07:40.000 --> 03:07:42.000 Bob N5BRG: Okay. 03:07:42.000 --> 03:07:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah. 03:07:48.000 --> 03:07:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I talk a lot about that, but let's go ahead on with the next thing. So here's our, uh, budget and dues. I'm not gonna… 03:07:55.000 --> 03:07:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Spend any time on, um… 03:07:59.000 --> 03:08:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: How bad we need your renewals, but just to cover this again, let you stare at this, um, it looks like we're really only getting about, uh. 03:08:09.000 --> 03:08:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 20 paid members, and we need your money, uh, just to, uh, survive and not continue the down climb. 03:08:20.000 --> 03:08:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I want to show you that we did add the donation button to the homepage. 03:08:27.000 --> 03:08:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, there is another option if you want to send a check, but. 03:08:32.000 --> 03:08:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, if you want to just click on a button and go through PayPal, this is on our home page now. Please pay your dues. Here is the, uh, membership page as it is today on our. 03:08:46.000 --> 03:08:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: website. It has a simple drop-down. There's just two options. Individual is $20, family's $21. 03:08:56.000 --> 03:09:01.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, and you can pay through PayPal, or you can also donate right here. 03:09:02.000 --> 03:09:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The left-hand side shows the navigation page, and there's, uh, the fourth link down is the membership. 03:09:12.000 --> 03:09:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, so here's some next steps that we talked about last month, uh, some things that I had to do. Uh, place a donate button, that's done. Irving Club providing a microgrant. 03:09:24.000 --> 03:09:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: David is here, we're working on that, uh, submitted some data. 03:09:29.000 --> 03:09:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: on that. 03:09:29.000 --> 03:09:34.000 David - KG5EIU TX: They said, uh, they told me I… there's a whole new, uh… 03:09:34.000 --> 03:09:36.000 David - KG5EIU TX: I'm bored, there's a whole new… 03:09:36.000 --> 03:09:41.000 David - KG5EIU TX: And that's fine, but I talked to those guys, uh, a week or so ago, and. 03:09:41.000 --> 03:09:49.000 David - KG5EIU TX: kind of gave them a, hey, is this something, what do you think, kind of a thing, and I got head bobs from him. 03:09:50.000 --> 03:09:55.000 David - KG5EIU TX: And, um, so they say February is when they would probably. 03:09:56.000 --> 03:09:59.000 David - KG5EIU TX: release it, right? So we… 03:09:59.000 --> 03:10:05.000 David - KG5EIU TX: We should, uh, maybe work on something to get it ready for that February, uh, date. 03:10:05.000 --> 03:10:07.000 David - KG5EIU TX: So we got some time to work on it, and… 03:10:08.000 --> 03:10:13.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Um, I gave them a kind of an overview of what… what we were trying to do. 03:10:13.000 --> 03:10:18.000 David - KG5EIU TX: And, uh, about how much we would want, and then the benefits, right? Multiband. 03:10:18.000 --> 03:10:22.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Uh, you know, gigahertz, uh… 03:10:23.000 --> 03:10:30.000 David - KG5EIU TX: beacon, and um… cover multiple bands, and everybody could use it in the DFW area, so… 03:10:30.000 --> 03:10:35.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Uh, it was good feedback from them, I felt… I felt good, so yeah, we'll continue working on it. 03:10:39.000 --> 03:10:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And by the same token, there could be something that NTMS could do for them. 03:10:46.000 --> 03:10:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Bye. 03:10:47.000 --> 03:10:52.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Oh, yeah, no, no doubt. They've got a… they've got a, uh… uh… 03:10:55.000 --> 03:10:58.000 David - KG5EIU TX: They've got an event coming up in March, um… 03:10:59.000 --> 03:11:01.000 David - KG5EIU TX: You know, it's like, uh… 03:11:01.000 --> 03:11:04.000 David - KG5EIU TX: It's at their bingo hall, right? 03:11:05.000 --> 03:11:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: The Hamfest? No. 03:11:05.000 --> 03:11:10.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, it's Hamfest, right, at their bingo hall, so… 03:11:10.000 --> 03:11:18.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Uh, it'd be good to maybe come out and see them out there, and… yeah, there's… there's a lot to… there's a lot that can be done with… with… 03:11:18.000 --> 03:11:23.000 David - KG5EIU TX: those clubs and some of the other clubs, I think, in the area as well, yeah. 03:11:23.000 --> 03:11:29.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Get some exposure, get some… get some more members, right? Like… like you guys are saying, there's about 20… 03:11:23.000 --> 03:11:26.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Sure. Well… 03:11:30.000 --> 03:11:35.000 David - KG5EIU TX: 20… 20 reoccurring members in the club, it's barely… 03:11:35.000 --> 03:11:37.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Self-funding, right? 03:11:37.000 --> 03:11:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh, it's not, and we're going… we're going through a period where the… 03:11:43.000 --> 03:11:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Bank balance is declining every… every year. Um, we process. 03:11:49.000 --> 03:11:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh… 03:11:51.000 --> 03:12:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: estates, let's put it that way, um, like, somebody's got to take care of all this stuff someday. And so, you know. 03:11:54.000 --> 03:11:56.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. 03:11:58.000 --> 03:12:02.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Right, yeah, yeah, same, same, same here, yeah. 03:12:02.000 --> 03:12:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, but we would like to be in a better position where that's not all that we depend on, but going back to how we could support Irving or other clubs is. 03:12:12.000 --> 03:12:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Our knowledge is in a different area than VHF, let's put it that way. So there could be something we could help them with, we could build something, we could… 03:12:16.000 --> 03:12:18.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Right. 03:12:23.000 --> 03:12:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We could, um… connect some way with equipment. 03:12:29.000 --> 03:12:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, that we have that would not be anything we would have to charge them for, but we… 03:12:34.000 --> 03:12:41.000 David - KG5EIU TX: The Irving guys also have access to a giant tower, uh, right down there in Irving. 03:12:41.000 --> 03:12:45.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Um, and they've got all kinds of antennas and stuff on it, so… 03:12:45.000 --> 03:12:50.000 David - KG5EIU TX: maybe put a beacon down there, I don't know if that makes sense or not, but I'm just throwing that out there, so… 03:12:48.000 --> 03:12:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh, yeah. 03:12:50.000 --> 03:12:53.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Um… yeah. 03:12:53.000 --> 03:12:55.000 David - KG5EIU TX: That'd be wonderful. 03:12:53.000 --> 03:13:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Exactly. We've got a few beacon deployment ideas. We do have access to one tower. 03:13:02.000 --> 03:13:06.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, that's not intent now. We, we have… 03:13:07.000 --> 03:13:14.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: the, um, unit that's at the top of the Texas Women University. 03:13:14.000 --> 03:13:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: dormitory, so that's a 280 feet high location. That's where our UHF and microwave beacons are currently located. 03:13:25.000 --> 03:13:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We have that access, and we also have another new tower access that's in the, um… 03:13:34.000 --> 03:13:36.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Louisville area. 03:13:36.000 --> 03:13:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And that's where we plan to deploy, um, the tri-band beacon. There's also, uh… 03:13:43.000 --> 03:13:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: an ongoing legacy location in a town called Desert. It's… 03:13:49.000 --> 03:13:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Not on the map. It's up my, uh… 03:13:55.000 --> 03:13:58.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Scott, if Scott's still here, it's… 03:14:00.000 --> 03:14:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's, it's by a town called Frognaut. 03:14:03.000 --> 03:14:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But anyway, so we've got several locations, but it would really be helpful if we could access something in the Irving area, so that's another possibility, but I'm talking about something we could do for them. 03:14:19.000 --> 03:14:25.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Which would be leveraging what we can bring to bear. 03:14:19.000 --> 03:14:21.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. 03:14:25.000 --> 03:14:31.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But we definitely want to support their activities, like the Ham Fest at the Bingo Hall, so… 03:14:31.000 --> 03:14:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Count on us to be there for that. 03:14:37.000 --> 03:14:39.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Excellent, yep. 03:14:39.000 --> 03:14:41.000 Ben Lowe: Hey Jim, I just had a thought. 03:14:42.000 --> 03:14:53.000 Ben Lowe: Since this group has unique skills, perhaps they could build something that would be of interest to VHF and UHF hams, because there's a lot more than them than there are microwave hams. 03:14:53.000 --> 03:15:03.000 Ben Lowe: and then raffle it off, and go to the different ham clubs that would have an interest in VHF and UHF, and raffle it off, because that way you only have to. 03:15:03.000 --> 03:15:06.000 Ben Lowe: Build one of them, but you can sell them to many people. 03:15:08.000 --> 03:15:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, I'm okay on selling it, but I'd be willing to give it to them, too, is maybe, uh, like, WSJT-based. 03:15:18.000 --> 03:15:27.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: um, VHF beacons, um, which are now well within our grasp, and we can build those. 03:15:27.000 --> 03:15:33.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, and make those available. They're just a couple hundred dollars. 03:15:28.000 --> 03:15:30.000 Ben Lowe: No. 03:15:33.000 --> 03:15:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So that's a good… that spurs me on, it sparks an idea, Ben. 03:15:34.000 --> 03:15:35.000 Ben Lowe: So… 03:15:41.000 --> 03:15:50.000 Ben Lowe: No, I'm not talking… I'm not talking about selling it to them. Sell raffle tickets, and get many, many people to buy raffle tickets on one desired item. 03:15:41.000 --> 03:15:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: to… 03:15:49.000 --> 03:15:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah. 03:15:51.000 --> 03:15:53.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, maybe, maybe so. 03:15:53.000 --> 03:15:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Maybe so. 03:15:57.000 --> 03:16:03.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Speaking of raffles, the, uh, DARC has started their raffle for Summerfield Day. 03:16:03.000 --> 03:16:11.000 David - KG5EIU TX: And they're raffling off a new 7300 Mark II. So you buy, uh, one ticket's $5. 03:16:11.000 --> 03:16:14.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Or you get 5 tickets for $20. 03:16:16.000 --> 03:16:19.000 David - KG5EIU TX: And every year that we've done one of those. 03:16:17.000 --> 03:16:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That's… that's HF plus 50 megahertz. 03:16:20.000 --> 03:16:25.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, it's a 7300, it's an HF radio, it's 6… 03:16:25.000 --> 03:16:31.000 David - KG5EIU TX: It's 6 meters and up to 160, right? It's the new Mark II, their new Mark II that just came out. 03:16:30.000 --> 03:16:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay. 03:16:32.000 --> 03:16:37.000 David - KG5EIU TX: But, um, you know, it's an investment. The club spends $1,500 for the radio. 03:16:37.000 --> 03:16:45.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Maybe less on a discount or a Hamfest sale, but it gets raffled off with ticket sales that start in January. 03:16:45.000 --> 03:16:48.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Um, and so we sell… 03:16:49.000 --> 03:16:54.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Hopefully 500 tickets, or more, uh, towards that, and so we end up. 03:16:54.000 --> 03:16:59.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Raffling that off, and it gets people interested in the club, it gets them out the field day. 03:16:59.000 --> 03:17:04.000 David - KG5EIU TX: And, uh, it also maybe generates a few hundred bucks for a club. 03:17:04.000 --> 03:17:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And it funds the microgrants. 03:17:07.000 --> 03:17:15.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Well, the microgrants come from, uh, Irving, uh, Radio Club. This is for the Dallas Amateur Radio Club. 03:17:15.000 --> 03:17:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay, gotcha. 03:17:17.000 --> 03:17:24.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, I'm just… I'm just using that as an example of how the… how the raffles have worked for. 03:17:24.000 --> 03:17:29.000 David - KG5EIU TX: uh, the Dallas Amateur Club, um, you're talking about raffling off something here, and… 03:17:29.000 --> 03:17:34.000 David - KG5EIU TX: If you can raffle something off and make some money on it, then that's awesome. 03:17:35.000 --> 03:17:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Maybe we should think more along those lines. 03:17:38.000 --> 03:17:43.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Well, you said you close out of states and stuff, so I, again, you know, um… 03:17:43.000 --> 03:17:52.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Usually, sometimes, depending on the estate, that could include all kinds of goodies, right? And you can either sell it, or… 03:17:52.000 --> 03:17:55.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Maybe your routes start raffling it off. 03:17:55.000 --> 03:18:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But that depends on people dying. 03:17:58.000 --> 03:18:02.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah, we don't like people dying. We don't know like that. 03:18:00.000 --> 03:18:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I like Ben's idea better. Focus on something people need that's current, and then raffle that off, and… 03:18:02.000 --> 03:18:04.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Yeah. 03:18:08.000 --> 03:18:10.000 David - KG5EIU TX: Exactly. 03:18:09.000 --> 03:18:11.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh. 03:18:16.000 --> 03:18:19.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay, let's keep moving. Um… 03:18:20.000 --> 03:18:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I've got my wife knocking on the door. So, there's another bullet point, uh, there's a grant. 03:18:28.000 --> 03:18:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, that could be obtained from the AA… ARRL. That's a, uh… 03:18:34.000 --> 03:18:39.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: A bigger task of, um, due diligence. 03:18:39.000 --> 03:18:45.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, I need a volunteer for that, if that's gonna happen. I don't know that I'll get to it until. 03:18:46.000 --> 03:18:49.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, after May, when I retire. 03:18:53.000 --> 03:19:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay, so let's talk about the election. This is the election meeting. I've not heard of any nominations. 03:19:00.000 --> 03:19:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, Matt Kuby, W5ZCA, asked to take a reprieve from the VP position. I just met with him last week. We had, um, Toad Burgers. 03:19:12.000 --> 03:19:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: at the Horny Toad Cafe in Franfield's Gap. We both operated a rover down there. 03:19:21.000 --> 03:19:30.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, he wanted to take a break because his work has required him to relocate. He now lives in Brownwood, so… 03:19:30.000 --> 03:19:38.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's just got him tied down right now. Al has volunteered for the VP position. 03:19:38.000 --> 03:19:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, for 2026, we will be planning microwave update. 03:19:43.000 --> 03:19:46.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, 2027. 03:19:46.000 --> 03:19:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I will continue on as the president if there are no objections. 03:19:51.000 --> 03:19:59.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I wanted to call out that there are several other people in the club that do work. Number one would be Scott Armstrong. 03:19:59.000 --> 03:20:04.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, 8A5 AM. Scott's kind of vigilant. 03:20:05.000 --> 03:20:10.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: On bringing forward information of interest, uh, to our group. 03:20:11.000 --> 03:20:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And… he… he served as a vice president a year ago. 03:20:18.000 --> 03:20:29.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But, um, Scott just has this, uh, compelling interest in what we do. Eric is our treasurer. That's an appointed position. 03:20:29.000 --> 03:20:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And Wes is… I'm sorry, Eric is our secretary. Wes is our treasurer. 03:20:40.000 --> 03:20:51.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, so if there are no objections, we'll just continue on like we are. I'll continue with the President position. Al will step in as the vice president to help. 03:20:51.000 --> 03:21:00.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, with all items there, and, uh, which he usually does anyway, and also with the, uh, microwave update planning. 03:21:05.000 --> 03:21:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Any other comments or, uh, conversation? 03:21:14.000 --> 03:21:18.000 Bob N5BRG: Jim, could you put on the front page of the webpage that the dues are due? 03:21:21.000 --> 03:21:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, from the website? 03:21:23.000 --> 03:21:28.000 Bob N5BRG: Yeah, on the website, just to get… remind people to send the money. 03:21:25.000 --> 03:21:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, let me see what I can do about that. 03:21:45.000 --> 03:21:48.000 Bob N5BRG: And I make a motion we adjourn. 03:21:48.000 --> 03:21:52.000 Barry VE4MA: I got one comment here for Jim, or a question for Jim. 03:21:54.000 --> 03:21:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And… 03:21:56.000 --> 03:22:01.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, I, uh… I heard from a V7 that apparently the, uh… 03:22:01.000 --> 03:22:07.000 Barry VE4MA: the guys over in Poland have got a new board designed for the 24 gig rigs, and. 03:22:07.000 --> 03:22:15.000 Barry VE4MA: I'm not sure what they've upgraded, but I wonder if you've, uh, any idea what they've done that might be a benefit to us, or… 03:22:19.000 --> 03:22:23.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh, that's the first I'm hearing of that, Barry. I… 03:22:24.000 --> 03:22:28.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I had supplied them with the, uh, Gerbers. 03:22:29.000 --> 03:22:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Because I didn't want to make another order yet. 03:22:32.000 --> 03:22:34.000 Barry VE4MA: Right. 03:22:32.000 --> 03:22:37.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: due to the, uh, tariffs that I incurred the last order. 03:22:37.000 --> 03:22:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And they… they were asking, um, could they get boards from me? 03:22:43.000 --> 03:22:48.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And, you know, I told them not till the tariff. 03:22:48.000 --> 03:22:56.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, it's not a problem, so I gave them the Gerbers. I'm not sure what new thing they've done. 03:22:57.000 --> 03:23:02.000 Barry VE4MA: I'll find the, uh, the email and forward it to you, so maybe you can query, uh… 03:23:03.000 --> 03:23:06.000 Barry VE4MA: the V7, uh, Dino was his name. 03:23:06.000 --> 03:23:08.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Great, thank you. 03:23:08.000 --> 03:23:10.000 Barry VE4MA: Okay. 03:23:09.000 --> 03:23:12.000 G8EMY/W5: Quick question for Barry, are you at your Canadian address? 03:23:12.000 --> 03:23:16.000 Barry VE4MA: Oh yeah, that's the only address I have now. 03:23:15.000 --> 03:23:25.000 G8EMY/W5: Okay, I'll… I'll send you some of the, uh, Vivaldes. And to our… and to our El Presidente, you want to talk briefly about, uh… 03:23:19.000 --> 03:23:21.000 Barry VE4MA: Okay, great. 03:23:25.000 --> 03:23:29.000 G8EMY/W5: Uh, Microwave update, 27. 03:23:35.000 --> 03:23:43.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I know that we need you to run the antenna range, Kent, and it would be helpful if you would pitch in with the. 03:23:44.000 --> 03:23:47.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, gathering of the proceedings. 03:23:47.000 --> 03:23:52.000 G8EMY/W5: Okay, I've been the VP several times, or have you already picked someone out for that? 03:23:53.000 --> 03:23:55.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, that's how. 03:23:55.000 --> 03:23:58.000 G8EMY/W5: Oh, it is! Oh, amazing, okay. 03:23:59.000 --> 03:24:05.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah, I just spoke on that. Al, uh, has volunteered to be, um… 03:24:06.000 --> 03:24:13.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: VP, so… I think we're squared away on that, but I think you could really help us with the proceedings. 03:24:13.000 --> 03:24:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And the, of course, the antenna range, that's a given. 03:24:18.000 --> 03:24:23.000 G8EMY/W5: And I can, uh, get out my cattle prod and convince a few people to become speakers. 03:24:25.000 --> 03:24:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I would appreciate that. So, we'll… we'll have some meetings coming up. Um, it's 2027, it's gonna be late in the year. 03:24:34.000 --> 03:24:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, but, uh, I don't think we can start too soon. Uh, so I don't retire until May 31st. 03:24:42.000 --> 03:24:52.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: So I'll have some limited participation until then, but once we get the venue selected early on, like, next month. 03:24:53.000 --> 03:24:57.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Um, then I really would appreciate your help. 03:24:57.000 --> 03:24:59.000 G8EMY/W5: Retirement? What's… 03:24:57.000 --> 03:25:03.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Uh, getting the pres… getting the proceedings pulled together and getting some speakers pulled together. 03:25:03.000 --> 03:25:05.000 G8EMY/W5: Retirement? What's that? 03:25:07.000 --> 03:25:12.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah. Don't… I'm not gonna go there, so… 03:25:12.000 --> 03:25:18.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's about the same as paid time off right now, which I, I call it pretend time off. 03:25:20.000 --> 03:25:24.000 G8EMY/W5: I tried retirement, but after 15 minutes, I got bored. 03:25:26.000 --> 03:25:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yeah. Um, let's see, I think it was that Bob asked about this page, I'm showing it now. 03:25:38.000 --> 03:25:41.000 Bob N5BRG: Yeah, no, I meant right up at the front on the… 03:25:42.000 --> 03:25:47.000 Bob N5BRG: On page, you know, make it so that if somebody goes to our site, they see a thing saying, pay your dues. 03:25:47.000 --> 03:25:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Oh, okay. Right here. 03:25:50.000 --> 03:25:55.000 Bob N5BRG: No, right in the middle of the front page, like, right there, yeah. 03:25:52.000 --> 03:25:54.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Yep, yeah, right here. 03:25:55.000 --> 03:26:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Okay, I'll change that and put it right up front, above the software-defined radio thing. 03:26:02.000 --> 03:26:06.000 Bob N5BRG: Yeah, make it bigger, too. 03:26:09.000 --> 03:26:17.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'm still trying to figure out how to send an HTML email so that I can actually send it to the whole NTMS group's I.O. 03:26:17.000 --> 03:26:20.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: That just has a clickable link. 03:26:22.000 --> 03:26:24.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I'll figure it out. 03:26:22.000 --> 03:26:24.000 Bob N5BRG: I can tell you how to do that. 03:26:24.000 --> 03:26:26.000 Bob N5BRG: Yeah. 03:26:27.000 --> 03:26:32.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: But yeah, I'll change it right here as soon as we're done, uh, so that it's right up front. 03:26:33.000 --> 03:26:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: And… 03:26:35.000 --> 03:26:42.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We, we do want folks to… folks to pay for their membership. Uh, you know, I… 03:26:42.000 --> 03:26:50.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: It's… it's great that folks come to our club meetings, and to the Zoom Meetings, and they contribute, and… 03:26:51.000 --> 03:27:02.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: They interact, but we need the money. This thing doesn't work on, you know, vapor. It has to have money. 03:27:02.000 --> 03:27:07.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Or we will run out of money. Or, unless we get some people that die. 03:27:07.000 --> 03:27:09.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: We're gonna run out of money. 03:27:16.000 --> 03:27:21.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: I heard you motion for, uh, adjourn. Anyone second that? 03:27:25.000 --> 03:27:26.000 Barry VE4MA: Yeah, the 4MA. 03:27:26.000 --> 03:27:28.000 David - KG5EIU TX: I'll second it. 03:27:27.000 --> 03:27:34.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Thank you, Barry. It was great having you guys here today. I really appreciate seeing the names in the list. 03:27:34.000 --> 03:27:40.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: Nice that Al could check in from KH6, and I will see you guys later. Thanks again. 03:27:40.000 --> 03:27:42.000 David - KG5EIU TX: I'm 3. 03:27:41.000 --> 03:27:43.000 Barry VE4MA: Thank you, Jim. 03:27:42.000 --> 03:27:44.000 Bob N5BRG: Thank you. 03:27:42.000 --> 03:27:44.000 NTMS_Zoom_Host: 7-3. 03:27:44.000 --> 03:27:46.000 Don VE6HQ: Thanks, Jim.